How many petals are optimum for a powder coated lead rifle bullet?

[Oldfeller]

Here is the link to the precursor thread that you have to read for this one to make sense

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...d-cast-bullets



I have cut me some six petal HST style bullets and they are simply too fragile and the flutes come off the body too easily when the bullets blow up.

Checking out several bullet makers, Rocky Mountain Reloading brand 9mm opens up into a three flute lead form when they do expand. They are also noted as "being somewhat reluctant" to fully expand.

Zero Bullets brand 9mm is noted to never expand except in dirt, and are rumored to show a three flute form on the occasions when they do expand in dirt.

Four flute forms are not seen at all in modern 9mm pistol bullets, so I lack a reference for the 9mm four flute form's pistol performance.

You see why I am thinking this ---- 6 flutes are too frail and 3 flutes are too strong.

Anybody got any additional real info on this topic?

Norma has a 4 flute expanding rifle bullet and there may be other older rifle bullets with 4 flutes .....





I looked further and found more examples of older bullets that did skived jacket 4 flute expansion and some that were examples of monolithic copper 4 flute expansion.

(this is a web page with many brands/bullets on it, so please click on it to view it)

https://files.osgnetworks.tv/10/file...llistics_F.jpg


I think 4 flutes would make up a good balanced bullet that would be easy to make up a fixture to produce, so I am going to drive towards simple fixturing for 2 main "all the way across" cuts at 90 degrees to each other resulting in a 4 flute expansion pattern.

[charlie b]

Alloy. Needs to be 'soft' enough to move and 'hard/tough' enough to not break. Don't forget you also need to have it expand after passing through a few layers of denim or hide.

[Oldfeller]

My alloy is wheel weight plus some 25% plain plumbers lead.

I no longer water drop since I powder coat everything. Many of my slugs are recycled slugs from things that I no longer shoot, so my origin of my lead is somewhat muddled.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I bet there is some advanced math formula for calculating optimum number of pedals, where you plug in specs like; length of pedal, bullet diameter, alloy, FPS.

[Oldfeller]

All I have is some relatively simplistic logical thinking, comparing what does not open up and work at all (3 petals), what works too well (6 petals), and then looking at examples from many different sources that does seem to work from the historical past (examples that all use 4 petals).

I think 4 is the right number, so I will fixture my cutter rig for 4 petals.

If I am wrong, then so be it. I have learned from failure many times, it does not scare me any more.

[Milky Duck]

X marks the spot then.....people like me have been cutting an X in front of 22lr since the 80s..Ive done the same with 151grn 30 calibre cast HPs as well....

[Bass Ackward]

All I have is some relatively simplistic logical thinking.

Was that an Archie Bunker quote? (BIG GRIN)

[Tripplebeards]

Well, if I’m getting what you’re throwing down. I don’t think any flutes and a lead powder coated bullet is going to do any good. They put flutes a.k.a. cuts in jacketed projectiles with a soft lead center so the jacket peels back. When you’re just putting flutes in a solid lead bullet, my guess is you’re probably not going to get the outcome you’re hoping for with what happens with a fluted jacketed bullet. In my opinion, if you want expansion, get yourself a good hollow, point mold, and Cast, as soft as you can along with powder coating and a gas check so you get no leading. I use the big round hollow point pin and I get super stupid expansion with good sized exit holes in my 35 rem with 10 1/2 BH hardness ran at 2100 ft./s.


It’s different with copper bullets because you have a hard exterior that you’re cutting slots in so the soft lead expands. Two different hardnesses. When you’re cutting flutes in a solid lead bullet, that’s all the same hardness in my opinion all you’re doing is making a design on it.

Most manufacturers either sell molds with a shallow or deep hollow point pin or a penta “5” design.

[Oldfeller]

Hey Bass, long time no see. It has been a long long time since we cranked up the last two iterations of this Shooters cast boolits list, ain't it?

Looks like I have gained the attention of a couple of current experts who wish to educate me and fix my current crop of errors.



Hey, imagine the capability to do an HST cut on any assembled cartridge at will, jacketed or solid, inside a minute per cut.

[20:1]

Modern JHP designs are generally made with 1:30 foundry alloy with a jacket that is skived to facilitate and regulate the hollow point expansion. The lead cores do have their hollow points formed so the core can expand. This information is just offered for any background assistance you may be able to glean from it. There are many other ways to make expanding bullets.

[Bass Ackward]

Person needs to do what they have to if it solves a problem “for them”.

I could only find a single requirement that just cranking up the velocity a tad wouldn’t solve. That is the dangerous specie, Tamias striatus.

So only shoot jacketed these days, huh?

[Oldfeller]

Bass, I shoot what works in the round and gun in question. In this case it is a 350 Legend in an AR platform that I learned isn't particularly cast bullet friendly.

Had an issue with 350 Legend my cast bullets catching some loading ramp damage and sticking and dragging my cast bullets in the rifle's throat, so I went with an inexpensive .355" jacked bullet that would load and unload repeatedly from the chamber on that gun.

In pursuing this, I then bought some bulk quantity of heavier 147 grain Zero skived and hollow pointed bullets that I found would not expand for love or money. Figured out how to get them to expand and then found that 6 HST petals was a bit too much of a cut job.

Snooped around and found that 4 petals had worked in years past for a lot of bullet manufacturers, so I came up with a potential way to skive at will 4 petals (and with a simple change of the bullet holder I could cut the six petal form too).

Ordered the square and hex aluminum stock needed for the trick from Ebone and now we wait for it to arrive.

Cutting HST slots in some larger heavier powder coated bullets would likely result in the nose petals bending over and breaking off in the 180 grain 1,800 fps heavy class of 35 caliber bullets. It would really mess a deer up while doing so.

I liked the idea of being able to modify the expansion characteristics of bulk purchased jacketed bullets, especially if I could do the modification to an already assembled round.

To me it is all fun to play with ........



So, do you clean skin and eat your chipmunks after you shoot them with your 35 Whelen?

[Bass Ackward]

Figured you had a reason. I …. can’t use that platform without causing me …. problems. Too many bad memories best left in the past. If you can afford to these days, Professor Gun is still the best teacher.

Don’t be silly. I would NEVER use a Whelen on a chipmunk. That is reserved for the 44 mag with 300 grainers. Good to see ya working with some stuff from this century.

I’ll be around.