Renegade weight

[lead chucker]

Just out of curiosity Any one here have a 58 cal Renegade they can weigh. I'm wondering how much lighter or should i say less heavy than a 50 cal Renegade is. I like the 50 but have two other 50 cal's that are much lighter that are good shooters. Moose drawing tags are going to be posted end of this week and if im so lucky to get one. I might have to treat my self to a 50 to 58 rebore by Hoyte. I have two long twist 54's that would probably do the job with a round ball but a guy always needs an excuse to get another bore size.

[SavageKustoms]

Can't help you much, as I also have one in 50. They are hefty, for sure. I don't think you would shave off a significant amount of weight, however anything helps lugging it around all day.

[LAGS]

I will dig out my .61 Renegade and compare it to my .50s and .54s and let you know.

[LAGS]

Ok.
Here is a rough break down.
My .50 cals weigh about 7 lb 15 oz
My 54s weigh about 7 lb 8 oz
The .61 cal weighs 7 lb .5 oz.
Now remember.
That is the complete rifles.
The stocks can weigh a little different.
But if you really want to lighten up a barrel, do what I did on one rifle.
I had a barrel with damage on part of the barrel outside on the front end.
So I draw filed the forward half of the barrel to almost round.
You can also send the barrel to someone and have it machined to something like a Swamped Barrel.
It will take me a little more time to just pull the barrels and get a weight difference in just the barrels.

[LAGS]

Barrel weights.
The .61 barrel weighs 4 lb 4.7 oz
The .50 cal weighs 5 lb 4.5 oz
The .54 cal weighs 4 lb 15 oz
Now this is with the same sights , ramrod tubes and under barrel ribs.
The under barrel rib weighs 3.1 oz
So some weight can be eliminated if you only use spacers at the ramrod thimbles rather than a full under barrel rib.

[pietro]

.

The larger the bore, the lighter the weight (all T/C Renegade barrels are the same thickness/length)

[LAGS]

If you subtract the barrel weight from the barrel from the whole rifle.
You will get an idea of the stock weights.
Like the .50 stock should be 2 lb 10 1/2 oz
The.54 stock is about 2 lb 9 oz
The .61 stock is 2 lb 12 oz.
If I would weigh the stocks themselves the result would be more accurate.
But if you want a lighter Renegade and gave several.
Then just weigh all the parts and assemble just the lighter parts.

[indian joe]

Ok.
Here is a rough break down.
My .50 cals weigh about 7 lb 15 oz
My 54s weigh about 7 lb 8 oz
The .61 cal weighs 7 lb .5 oz.
Now remember.
That is the complete rifles.
The stocks can weigh a little different.
But if you really want to lighten up a barrel, do what I did on one rifle.
I had a barrel with damage on part of the barrel outside on the front end.
So I draw filed the forward half of the barrel to almost round.
You can also send the barrel to someone and have it machined to something like a Swamped Barrel.
It will take me a little more time to just pull the barrels and get a weight difference in just the barrels.

My 54 CVA on a "Brazilian Walnut" stock, steel hardware = 7 lb 10 oz

on the original Beech stock with plastic and alloy furniture was a tiny bit under 7lb from memory
for some weird reason I have grown out of I used to shoot that thing with 120 grains of FFg - scary accurate but not fun at all - the too straight stock used to hammer my cheekbone

[LAGS]

Several of the TC stocks that I had or still have were so damaged or in poor condition when I bought them.
The stocks after sanding and reshaping on some stocks made the stocks a lot lighter.
There are lots of ways to lighten up these rifles.
The nice thing about a Renegade is,
It has a flat butt plate.
If you want to compensate for more recoil because of the lighter weight , you can install a Recoil pad .
I did that on a couple of stocks to add to the length on the stock also that makes the rifle fit you like if you have really long arms or just prefer stocks with a longer pull.

[lead chucker]

Thanks for going through all the trouble weighing your rifles. Sounds like it would be around a pound lighter pending stock weight. Trying to figure out what i want to do with this gun. It was a kit my buddy and his dad put together probably 30 years ago. They did a really nice job on it. Already having two other 50 cals i dont need another one. Kind of thinking 58 with a 1/48 twist so i could shoot balls and boolits. Dont know what type of rifling would be the best compromise. Also if i wanted it to be a ball gun with a long twist. The barrel length comes into play doesn't it?

[LAGS]

I truly believe that the longer barrels shoot better than short barreled rifles.
Mainly because of the space between the front and rear sights.

[indian joe]

I truly believe that the longer barrels shoot better than short barreled rifles.
Mainly because of the space between the front and rear sights.

yes that

but I like the heft too and I reckon a longer barrel hangs on the mark much better - dont have to be heavy - just some weight in the forward hand - my little 45cal flinter is 7lb3oz with full wood and 39inch barrel - also got a 38/40 model 92 with 26 inch barrel thats only 6lb 12 oz -- they dont have to be heavy / ungainly - both those guns come to the shoulder as quick and easy as any I have ever had .

[lead chucker]

If i was to go with a 58 slow ball twist how does barrel length correlate with powder charge? 27 inch barrel say in comparison with a 32 inch barrel Seems a longer barrel would give you a more complete powder burn and more speed than a shorter one. You want to get the proper spin on the ball. Say with a 27" and 80 to 90gr 2f verses 100 to 110 gr 2f. Or a comperable 3f load. If a guy wanted better accuracy with around 70 gr. Wouldnt you want a little faster twist like 1/60 verses a 1/70 or is it negligible. I would want better accuracy with hunting loads but decent with lower target loads.

[lead chucker]

I know every thing is a compromise. Im sure there are guys here that have a lot more real life experience with this stuff than i do.

[LAGS]

In the shooting I did last week.
Both the 1:48 and 1:66 barrels that were both 27" long were just as accurate with a 70 gr load.
You are correct that a longer barrel allows the powder all to burn.
But that is only with super heavy loads.
The accuracy with both barrels was the same with the round balls and shots that I did with 230 gr .451 .45acp lead slugs in a plastic sabots.
But all shooting was at a shorter distance like 25 yards.
Heavier slugs will shoot better with a faster twist rifling than the 1:48
The difference in the twist for slow twists could also be related to the caliber and weight of the ball in that caliber.
IE.
A .50 cal ball weighs less than a .54 cal.
Is there is a chance that a 1:60 works better for the .54 than a 1:70 twist that would be good for the .50 cal.
I am not an expert along these lines.
But maybe there is someone who can jump in with better information.
Maybe calling and asking Mr.Hoyt would be a good option.
I did tool at barrels for sale on TOW.
One mfg is 1:66 rifling on all three barrels
The other mfg lists 50 thru 58 in 1:70 twists.
Smaller calibers list faster twists

[lead chucker]

calling him is hit or miss mostly miss. Im sure if he answered the phone all the time he wouldn't get anything done. When you do get him on the phone he is very informative and very pleasant to talk to. Just haven't picked his brain on the 58 round ball twist yet. I want a good accurate twist at 100 gr 2f or less with the 58 round ball. As i get older recoil isn't as much fun as when i was younger.

[indian joe]

If i was to go with a 58 slow ball twist how does barrel length correlate with powder charge? 27 inch barrel say in comparison with a 32 inch barrel Seems a longer barrel would give you a more complete powder burn and more speed than a shorter one. You want to get the proper spin on the ball. Say with a 27" and 80 to 90gr 2f verses 100 to 110 gr 2f. Or a comperable 3f load. If a guy wanted better accuracy with around 70 gr. Wouldnt you want a little faster twist like 1/60 verses a 1/70 or is it negligible. I would want better accuracy with hunting loads but decent with lower target loads.

I dont have the math or science to back this just burnt powder
its accepted wisdom that as ball size increases the ideal twist RATE decreases fr instance 38 - 40 cal = 60" twist, 45 - 50 cal 66" , 54 - 58 cal = 72" twist ---there proly some math to back this to do with ball cross section, surface area vs weight -- I dont have the math, dunno where it is, but based on the burnt powder experience I say there is something to it.

Lets look at some barrels (ball guns)
1) Belgian flinter barrel 45 cal, 48" twist, shallowish rifling - load 55 grains of FFFg = good accurate load, load 60 or more grains of FFFg all goes to hell - ya blew it mate !

2) CVA pensylvania flinter 50 cal 66" twist, 42inch long, shallowish rifling (a bit deeper than the Belgian but much less depth than a geen Mountain) = the ideal geometry for a 50 cal Rb barrel -- shot accurate with any load from 40 grains of FFFG to 100 grains of FFg (20 years on still cant believe I stoopidly traded this one away)

3) Green Mountain Flinter barrel 50 cal, 70 " twist (?or mybe 72"), deeper rifling 42 inch long, - for whatever reason this one did not want to perform with lighter loads, it was decent at about 70 grains FFFG and better with more

4) Zoli mississippi rifle, 58 cal, 72 " twist, shallow (military minie style) rifling, 32 inch barrel, this is an accurate and easily loaded round ball shooter. There will be a bunch of gurus and re enactors yelling already - its the most deadly accurate minie gun ever invented - baloney - at best its a compromise that some extremely diligent fellers can get to perform well despite how it is built not because of it. I have not yet been diligent enough to find the right minie to make it work - found a few that dont pretty easily tho.

so thats my story on twist until a better one comes along

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=LAGS;5689499]In the shooting I did last week.
Both the 1:48 and 1:66 barrels that were both 27" long were just as accurate with a 70 gr load.
Lags my comment here would be the 48 twist is in the upper end of comfy while the 66 twist about middle

Gotta think if there is three foot of flame coming out the end we are seeing unburnt/ part burned powder - see large flames pretty often.

[lead chucker]

Today I was able to go shoot, been a couple months. Range has been snowed in. I took my TC Hawkins out for a good shoot. I was shooting .530 balls with .015 patches 80 gr 3f homemade around 40 yards cleaned barrel after every shot and got 1.5 inch groups. Shot a next group with out cleaning and was around 3 inch groups. That was about 15 shots with out any cleaning. I believe this is a 1/60 Hoyte did on this rifle. I found that interesting. So back to the 58 cal. So Really long twists for big balls But and thats a big But. What twist rate for the load you want to shoot? If i want to shoot 80-100 gr and get really good accuracy would the same twist be just a accurate with 120 gr? Its all about bullet or ball rpm right. So if the best twist for a 58 is 1/70 or more is that at max load so if at 70-90 gr would you want 1/60- 1/66?
I thinks you guys know what im getting at here.

[lead chucker]

What im trying to say is if you don't want to shoot max loads and want to be around a 3/4 load and want to have a barrel made for a specific caliber say the 58 round ball, velocity should have a play in it right?