38 special and 38+p powder selection and velocity

[Magnum0710]

I'm working on some load development and was wondering if anyone here could give me an idea of what I'm working with. I've worked up a few 38 loads but they were all used in a 4 inch 357 magnum. I recently added a 38 snubby to my collection so I decided to rework my loads and I've worked them up to where they are suitable in both my guns.
When I was using them in a 357 I still worked up but the 357 handled max 38+p loads like nothing. The 38 snub has been a different story. I've gotten just under max but the max loads felt like they would be too much for the gun with extensive use. I'm using 158 grain cast SWCs from Missouri Bullets and worked up with Win 231 and HS6. Here is where I topped out.

4.2 grains Win 231 max standard pressure
4.5 grains 231 max +p
6.2 grains HS6 max standard pressure
6.5 grains HS6 max +p

The book max for +p is 4.7 grains 231 and 6.7 grains HS6. Lyman goes higher with 231 but 4.7 was the max with other sources. Both felt like they'd be too much over time. The HS6 seemed more forgiving than 231, I really don't feel I should go past 4.2 grains 231 period. I could probably go to the 6.7 max on HS6 but it would be for limited use.
It looks like 6.5 grains HS6 is going to be the winner when it comes to serious use.
Unfortunately I don't have a chronograph yet but I was hoping someone here could give me an idea of what velocities I can expect from these loads out of a snub nose?
I highly doubt 4.2 grains of 231 will hit even 800 fps from a 2 inch barrel. I do think 6.5 grains HS6 should get me above 800 fps. It is a +p load but just barely.
While every gun is different I found a thread where a guy was getting an average of 938 fps with 6.5 HS6 under a 158 swc from a 4 inch 686. Just guesstimating from those numbers I should hit over 800 easily from a 2 inch but maybe I'm wrong?
I guess the lesson here is that I really need to get a chronograph!

[Wayne Smith]

You must specify which snubby. I have a Colt Agent (aluminum frame) and a S&W Model 19 2" - and they do NOT get all the same ammo!

[Magnum0710]

I have a Rock Island m206, it's basically a knock off Detective Special. It handles factory +p like a champ. I ran some Federal Punch 120 grain +p and it was pleasant to shoot. It handled the max +p loads just fine but I just want to try and reduce wear and tear. I emailed Armscor and they told me it is rated for +p but they don't recommend a steady diet, which is usually what all companies say about +p ammo. Popular belief is that it's not rated for +p because it only says 38 special.
I think the best solution is to go into +p territory but stay under max loads. I think 6.5 grains HS6 is probably my best bet but if I can safely get over 800 fps with 231 I'd be really happy. I'd rather save my HS6 for 357 magnum but if I have to use it for 38 I will. I'm not looking to get 950-1000 fps out of a snub, just trying to get to an adequate load. I see alot of factory 158s only getting 750 fps or so out of 2 inch barrels.
I've heard of magnum primers working better with HS6, perhaps I should rework the HS6 loads with magnum primers?

[Winger Ed.]

It can be a bit of a hassle, and you'd need to take certain precautions, but I'd keep 'em separate for the two guns.

Depending on which one you have,, some .38s gave up some strength to save weight.
If you have one of those, they really aren't made to be fired a whole lot before they sort of wear out.
Hot loads are the best way to get there with one.
Sort of like your car-- it may be able to do 120mph, but it'll last longer if ya keep it under 85.

I've heard of various Police Depts. where undercover officers and detectives carry a small .38, but will
do their annual qualification with a regular issue 'range gun'.
The duty load may be a +P, but they try to keep the 'mileage' off of them.

However; the mild loads the .38 will do well and live a long time with will be rather disappointing to fire in the .357.

A simple solution might be to load the ammo for the .38 with HBWC or DEWCs.
And loads for the .357 with something bigger like a Keith style SWC.

[Outpost75]

You also want to measure barrel-cylinder gap. If gap is at max 0.008" +P ammo will give no more velocity than standard-pressure ammo in a gun with gap at minimum 0.004".

You really want to take feeler gates to the store with you and if gap is over 0.008" don't buy the gun. I have seen NIB revolvers these days with gaps as large as 0.010".

[Magnum0710]

I have a Rock Island 206, it's all steel so definitely not a lightweight alloy frame or anything. It is cheap but surprisingly it's decent quality. It's not as good as my Security Six but it's not bad for what it is. It is rated for +p but they don't recommend a steady diet which is what all companies say about +p ammo. I got it for a truck gun and occasional carry when I'm in the mood for a snubby. Luckily I picked it up when I did, my current edc has been giving me issues so I've been carrying it until I get things worked out.

[Magnum0710]

I guess the issue I have isn't so much with standard pressure but low velocity. Looking at tests of the factory FBI loads which are +p, even when they don't expand they still don't get the penetration I'd like to see going less than 800 from a snubby. I can't say forsure but I'm guessing a normal SWC wouldn't go much deeper at low velocity. Unless I'm wrong and a hard cast swc would go deeper than a swaged bullet?

[Kosh75287]

There's a load using RedDot and 158 gr. LSWCs that will give 1000 f/s from a 2" vented revolver barrel. I won't repeat it here, but it made me appreciate Alliant RedDot (or PROMO) for use in .38 Special. Alliant Unique is also a stellar propellant for 38 Spl., as well as about 95% of all other pistol/revolver rounds in common use, today.
Red Dot is slightly slower burning than Bullseye, which is the gold-standard for reduced velocity .38 Spl. loads. Red Dot will do anything that Bullseye will do, plus a few things that BE will not. For higher-performance loads in .38 Spl., Unique is an excellent propellant.

[P Flados]

I used QL to estimate. I reduced results by 50 fps for cylinder gap. I set barrel length at 3.7" (QL uses breech to muzzle). Seating depth was 0.360".

I do not expect the below to be very "accurate", but the differences between loads should be reasonable.

HS-6 will give good velocity (slightly better than Unique), but expect it to be dirty. Not that dirty matters for a snubby SD load if that is what you are thinking.

The 4.5 of 231 and 6.5 of HS6 did show as +P and the other 2 showed as high in the band for "regulars".

4.2 grains Win 231 est 734
4.5 grains 231 est 774
6.2 grains HS6 est 792
6.5 grains HS6 est 828

[dverna]

I am a KISS person. IMO some people overthink this kind of stuff.

50 fps one way or the other is not going to "make or break" a load. I would rather have one load that works in everything.

If these are SD loads, you may find the cast bullets form Missouri Bullets too hard. My suggestion is buy some XTP's, or other good commercial jacketed bullet, for "serious work" and practice with cast.

Here is data on bullets shot from 2 and 4" barrels in .38:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...cs-test/#38spl

Here it is for .357:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...s-test/#357mag

300 jacketed bullets will last a lifetime and cost $100. Cheap insurance for something that may save your life.

[Magnum0710]

I used QL to estimate. I reduced results by 50 fps for cylinder gap. I set barrel length at 3.7" (QL uses breech to muzzle). Seating depth was 0.360".

I do not expect the below to be very "accurate", but the differences between loads should be reasonable.

HS-6 will give good velocity (slightly better than Unique), but expect it to be dirty. Not that dirty matters for a snubby SD load if that is what you are thinking.

The 4.5 of 231 and 6.5 of HS6 did show as +P and the other 2 showed as high in the band for "regulars".

4.2 grains Win 231 est 734
4.5 grains 231 est 774
6.2 grains HS6 est 792
6.5 grains HS6 est 828

Thank you for that! I just figured out I'm supposed to reply with quote I didn't realize that was there.
HS6 is a little dirty but it's not as bad as using it for target loads. I'm actually going to rework my HS6 loads using magnum primers, it's supposed to help alot. Even still I definitely don't mind it with standard primers. It is a self defense load, mostly a woods load if I'm unable to carry my 4 inch 357 but it will also be in my SHTF stockpile. Kind of an all around use type of deal.
My theory seems to be correct that HS6 is the way to go. Your QL estimates are close to my own estimates. I got mine for seeing what others chronographed so you're definitely not too far off. In any case it seems like HS6 is the way to go. The standard pressure HS6 load gets more speed than the +p 231 load. The standard pressure HS6 load gets me very close so I may even go that route. I want to get a chronograph soon but for now I think I'm going to keep on with HS6. I mostly use 231 for range loads anyway, even in other calibers it never gets me where I want to be. Thank you again!

[Magnum0710]

I am a KISS person. IMO some people overthink this kind of stuff.

50 fps one way or the other is not going to "make or break" a load. I would rather have one load that works in everything.

If these are SD loads, you may find the cast bullets form Missouri Bullets too hard. My suggestion is buy some XTP's, or other good commercial jacketed bullet, for "serious work" and practice with cast.

Here is data on bullets shot from 2 and 4" barrels in .38:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...cs-test/#38spl

Here it is for .357:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...s-test/#357mag

300 jacketed bullets will last a lifetime and cost $100. Cheap insurance for something that may save your life.

I do overthink things a little, I guess I just want to get the most out of the little 38. The loads do work in both my guns, it's just that I can push the 38 a little harder in my 357 magnum. My target loads work great in both guns, 3.2 grains 231 under a 158 and 3.6 grains 231 under a 105.
I am very familiar with the Lucky Gunner tests and you're right, normally 50 fps won't make or break a load. The Lucky gunner tests are also what convinced me I need to push the SWCs a little faster. I'm trying to build a woods load but would probably use it for SHTF stock as well. Looking at the LG tests none of the factory FBI loads make it past 18 inches even when they don't expand. Maybe it's because they're swaged and not hard cast but I'd just feel better having my loads go a little faster than 750 or so.
It looks like my +p HS6 load will get me in the range I want to be in. It's barely a +p load anyway, max is 6.7 but max standard pressure is 6.3 grains.

[jdgabbard]

Been thinking about buying one of the M206s for a while, but just didn't care for the whole parkerizing on a revolver idea...

That said, I think the biggest issue you're going to have is getting the velocity you want from a short barrel. I've moved to 125gr bullets in the snub, using the MP357-125-HP over 5gr of Unique. It's been an accurate load in all my guns, and isn't too bad in a Taurus 85 UltraLight either. However, there is a LOT of muzzle and cylinder flash to that load. It also bakes on the carbon really well - Hoppes 9 has to soak for a while to begin breaking it down... I've been considering moving over to Power Pistol, which has a max load of 6.5gr for a 125gr Jacketed Bullet at +P velocities. But even then, the velocity in a 4" barrel is only stated to be 1000fps.

This brings me back to looking at old data, in the Lyman 45th there is a load with Unique and a 120gr bullet that states it will go 1132fps. Knowing that, I'm fairly certain that modern revolvers were not made to the same strengths as our older examples. All of the light weight pocket revolvers are built to weight and price points. Which is why I continue to carry my pocket tank, a Ruger SP101 in 38spl. That gun would likely handle 38-44 loads just fine if I wanted it to.

For your application, unless you're just wanting to keep the 158gr, I would consider lighter boolits if you're wanting to get more velocity.

[Magnum0710]

Been thinking about buying one of the M206s for a while, but just didn't care for the whole parkerizing on a revolver idea...

That said, I think the biggest issue you're going to have is getting the velocity you want from a short barrel. I've moved to 125gr bullets in the snub, using the MP357-125-HP over 5gr of Unique. It's been an accurate load in all my guns, and isn't too bad in a Taurus 85 UltraLight either. However, there is a LOT of muzzle and cylinder flash to that load. It also bakes on the carbon really well - Hoppes 9 has to soak for a while to begin breaking it down... I've been considering moving over to Power Pistol, which has a max load of 6.5gr for a 125gr Jacketed Bullet at +P velocities. But even then, the velocity in a 4" barrel is only stated to be 1000fps.

This brings me back to looking at old data, in the Lyman 45th there is a load with Unique and a 120gr bullet that states it will go 1132fps. Knowing that, I'm fairly certain that modern revolvers were not made to the same strengths as our older examples. All of the light weight pocket revolvers are built to weight and price points. Which is why I continue to carry my pocket tank, a Ruger SP101 in 38spl. That gun would likely handle 38-44 loads just fine if I wanted it to.

For your application, unless you're just wanting to keep the 158gr, I would consider lighter boolits if you're wanting to get more velocity.

The only reason I'm looking for speed is to increase penetration, my carry loads are 120 grain +p and they get about 900 fps from most snubs. I think what I really need to do is find a place to shoot outdoors and see what my loads can really do.
I don't know if the hollow point slows them down or if it's cause they're swaged and not cast, but looking at tests of factory +p FBI loads they just don't get the penetration I'd want for a woods load.
As for the 206 I like it a lot! I'm surprised at how well it carries. If only they made it in 357 magnum! The parkerizing isn't horrible although they do have a nickel plated model. It was hard to find for a while but they've been popping up online recently. I got the parkerized model with spurless hammer. I mostly shoot double action anyway so it made sense for me. I used to have the EAA Windicator 357 but traded it towards my Security Six. Overall I like the 206 better but since the EAA is a 357 it's kind of a toss up. The 206 is easy to work on if you need to. Also, it carries surprisingly well. It's not a pocket gun but it carries really well on a belt. I've been carrying it since my EDC has been acting up but I got it to carry when I might have to leave it in the car and for knock around use. I'll probably load it with half snake shot and half hardcast when I'm doing yard work this summer. It's heavy but it's lighter than the EAA was. I'm probably going to pick up some Pachmayr Compaq grips for the Detective Special and put em on the 206. The wood grips aren't bad and they conceal nicely but anything less than a textbook grip and they beat your hand up. The plastic grips are too big, I could probably pull it off but the wood grips carry better. The Pachmayr grips should be about perfect, easier to shoot than wood and easier to hide than the big plastic grips.
If I find the right deal on an old Speed Six or SP101 it will probably get traded in towards it but for right now it fits my needs. I could've got a Taurus 605 for a little more but I'd rather have 6 shots over 5 and I've never had a Taurus revolver. I have a G3C that's been great but at the time I didn't have a lot to spend so the 206 fit the bill.

[20:1]

I have a Rock Island m206, it's basically a knock off Detective Special. It handles factory +p like a champ. I ran some Federal Punch 120 grain +p and it was pleasant to shoot. It handled the max +p loads just fine but I just want to try and reduce wear and tear. I emailed Armscor and they told me it is rated for +p but they don't recommend a steady diet, which is usually what all companies say about +p ammo. Popular belief is that it's not rated for +p because it only says 38 special.
I think the best solution is to go into +p territory but stay under max loads. I think 6.5 grains HS6 is probably my best bet but if I can safely get over 800 fps with 231 I'd be really happy. I'd rather save my HS6 for 357 magnum but if I have to use it for 38 I will. I'm not looking to get 950-1000 fps out of a snub, just trying to get to an adequate load. I see alot of factory 158s only getting 750 fps or so out of 2 inch barrels.
I've heard of magnum primers working better with HS6, perhaps I should rework the HS6 loads with magnum primers?

Since the manufacturer doesn't recommend a steady diet of +P, and intentionally didn't mark the gun "+P", I'd stay out of it myself. I'd suggest std pressure wadcutters for the snubby. Please notice that I said "std pressure", and not "target" loads. Most 2 inch 38 Special +P loads don't generate enough velocity to facilitate bullet expansion, some 4 inchers don't either. Even factory loads. Personally, I'm a bit leery of subjecting imported guns to pressures they're obviously not designed to withstand anyway. This is where the lowly wadcutter shines, since it is not designed to expand anyway. It is designed to cut a clean hole in its target for the full length of its travel. Many LEOs carry wadcutters in their backup revolvers. Skip the +P stuff entirely and load the 357 as a 357, and the 38 as a standard pressure 38 Spl. Here's a bit of reading material for you to ponder. Yes, I am aware that they are using clear ballistics blocks, which aren't the same as the FBI organic gelatin but everything here is done consistently the same way with the same materials for the sake of comparison.

Ed Harris: https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharri...FBI%20Load.htm

Lucky Gunner gel tests. Note how hamstrung the 38 Spl is with a two inch barrel. Lots of pics!: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

[jdgabbard]

The only reason I'm looking for speed is to increase penetration, my carry loads are 120 grain +p and they get about 900 fps from most snubs. I think what I really need to do is find a place to shoot outdoors and see what my loads can really do.
I don't know if the hollow point slows them down or if it's cause they're swaged and not cast, but looking at tests of factory +p FBI loads they just don't get the penetration I'd want for a woods load.
As for the 206 I like it a lot! I'm surprised at how well it carries. If only they made it in 357 magnum! The parkerizing isn't horrible although they do have a nickel plated model. It was hard to find for a while but they've been popping up online recently. I got the parkerized model with spurless hammer. I mostly shoot double action anyway so it made sense for me. I used to have the EAA Windicator 357 but traded it towards my Security Six. Overall I like the 206 better but since the EAA is a 357 it's kind of a toss up. The 206 is easy to work on if you need to. Also, it carries surprisingly well. It's not a pocket gun but it carries really well on a belt. I've been carrying it since my EDC has been acting up but I got it to carry when I might have to leave it in the car and for knock around use. I'll probably load it with half snake shot and half hardcast when I'm doing yard work this summer. It's heavy but it's lighter than the EAA was. I'm probably going to pick up some Pachmayr Compaq grips for the Detective Special and put em on the 206. The wood grips aren't bad and they conceal nicely but anything less than a textbook grip and they beat your hand up. The plastic grips are too big, I could probably pull it off but the wood grips carry better. The Pachmayr grips should be about perfect, easier to shoot than wood and easier to hide than the big plastic grips.
If I find the right deal on an old Speed Six or SP101 it will probably get traded in towards it but for right now it fits my needs. I could've got a Taurus 605 for a little more but I'd rather have 6 shots over 5 and I've never had a Taurus revolver. I have a G3C that's been great but at the time I didn't have a lot to spend so the 206 fit the bill.

If you're looking for a "woods" load, there are options. But if you're concerned about the wear and tear on the M206, you probably just want to shoot standard loads for practice, and the heavy loads for actually "work". There are factory loads that exceed the FBI test very well. Here is my favorite. That load reportedly achieves 1050fps out of a 2" barrel with a 158gr SWC. You won't get much expansion. But you will get penetration. The whole idea behind using SWC as service loads was that the 38spl just didn't have enough energy back in the day to be able to reliably expand and penetrate. That is not the case today, with some of the newer loadings. But a SWC with effectively cut a full diameter hole through whatever you shoot it at. Hornady also has a pretty hot 125gr XTP loading at 1050fps out of a 4" barrel. But you're still not going to get the velocity or penetration you'll get with the previous load I linked to. Though, this is a store bought option. That might not be something you're interested in, but it will take the work out of the equation for you.

If you decide to go that route, I would suggest practice loads consisting of the tried and true 158gr SWC and 5.0gr of Unique. That is a great load no matter what gun you shoot it in, at least in my experience. If you want to use 231 instead, 4.0grs of 231 should give you similar results. I don't use store bought cast, so I can't say how this will perform for you, but assuming you've got quality bullets that are appropriately size it should not be an issue. Ultimately, I think you should probably have a "practice load" regardless of if you decide to work up a woods load, or buy one. A steady diet of heavy loads can shake any revolver apart...

[El Bibliotecario]

I've no idea if this will be of any use but I've found 173 grain Keith SWCs penetrate relatively deeper in dirt than 158 grain SWCs cast from similar or harder metal.

[MT Gianni]

The only reason I'm looking for speed is to increase penetration, my carry loads are 120 grain +p and they get about 900 fps from most snubs. I think what I really need to do is find a place to shoot outdoors and see what my loads can really do.
I don't know if the hollow point slows them down or if it's cause they're swaged and not cast, but looking at tests of factory +p FBI loads they just don't get the penetration I'd want for a woods load.

Look again, in all the results I have seen a 158 gr beats a 130 gr on penetration every time. If you want a standard pressure velocity winner use 5.6 gr Ramshot Silhuette and a 158 gr cast swc for 1050 fps and 16000 psi.

[P Flados]

If you want a standard pressure velocity winner use 5.6 gr Ramshot Silhuette and a 158 gr cast swc for 1050 fps and 16000 psi.

Darn that pesky little "goofy load manual barrel length" thing pops back up.

I found the 5.6 gr Silhouette and 158 SWC load in a Western data book. The 1050 fps is the tested speed from a "7.75" barrel", and I did not see any indication as to this being an actual gun, a vented test barrel or an unvented test barrel. None of these make much sense for a 38 Sp load, but it does make for some impressive looking results.

Running QL for the above came in very close to the test results with parameters for a 7.75 "unvented" barrel. Running the load as a revolver, adds ~1.7" for cylinder and then subtracts 50 fps for cylinder gap. Again the results matched reasonably well.

Changing parameters for a 2" revolver gives an estimated 800 fps for the load. This is real close to the 792 fps prediction from 5.2 gr HS-6 reported earlier in this thread. When set up for a snubby and SAAMI max normal pressure of 17,000 psi, QL say HS-6 wins by a whopping 6 fps (i.e. not enough to spit at).

[dverna]

Darn that pesky little "goofy load manual barrel length" thing pops back up.

I found the 5.6 gr Silhouette and 158 SWC load in a Western data book. The 1050 fps is the tested speed from a "7.75" barrel", and I did not see any indication as to this being an actual gun, a vented test barrel or an unvented test barrel. None of these make much sense for a 38 Sp load, but it does make for some impressive looking results.

Running QL for the above came in very close to the test results with parameters for a 7.75 "unvented" barrel. Running the load as a revolver, adds ~1.7" for cylinder and then subtracts 50 fps for cylinder gap. Again the results matched reasonably well.

Changing parameters for a 2" revolver gives an estimated 800 fps for the load. This is real close to the 792 fps prediction from 5.2 gr HS-6 reported earlier in this thread. When set up for a snubby and identical pressures, QL say HS-6 wins by a whopping 8 fps (i.e. not enough to spit at).

Good post