crimp question(s) for WFN and FN in a tube fed rifle.

[Lance Boyle]

I recently got a Cimarron 1873 .357 levergun and cast some NOE 358-135 FN bullets for it.

Most every revolver bullet has had a pretty clear crimp groove but this one does not. The only groove is the lube groove and I believe the crimp goes in front of the driving band. The WFN bullets seem to have the same set up.

If I understand it, seat so the driving band is buried below the case neck just enough to fold the crimp in front of it.

Or are you roll crimping into the band itself? That seems odd but it would probably curb bullets getting set back with recoil.

the other parameters are of course getting the cartridges to be long enough but not too long to cycle and feed from the magazine with hiccups.


*Disclaimer, I am very sleepy and about to go to bed so my responses will be delayed any about 8 hours.

[justindad]

That bullet was designed for taper crimped 9mm rounds. You can roll crimp over the front driving band for shooting in a .357 Mag revolver, but that won’t help your rifle. If you were to crimp in the lube groove, you would need to be careful that you’re not pressing lube into unhelpful places… maybe PC boolits could work there… assuming your OAL is ok. I think Lee makes a tool that forms a cannelure into a driving band.
*
Might need a different boolit. Or, run your gun in single-shot mode with a taper crimp.

[wilecoyote]

...at the worst, a Lee collet-style crimp die could work even where a crimp groove doesn't exist_
I've a C-H cannelure tool, but if Lee also produces one, I would be quite interested...

[kungfustyle]

+1 ^^^^ The Lee collet-style crimp die https://www.midwayusa.com/product/101683339?pid=240550 I have one for my Rossi 44 mag rifle and a 300g NOE mold. Same thing I have to seat the boolit that the crimp grove is below the case mouth. It works very well and is as accurate as I am.

[Lance Boyle]

Ahh that is what I was expecting based on the bullet mold features....9mm Luger design and probably why I bought it....although it was in a batch from a member so I may have been looking at the other dies and these were ride alongs. I cannot remember that far back.

I haven’t tried pushing one hard against the bench. Only dummies produced so far. I did increase the crimp from what I had set before on other bullets when I made the dummies up.


The Lee crimp die is certainly a good way to address the issue.

My worry is I go with what I got and then down the road find another case that won’t cooperate and let’s the bullet slip.

You guys are a fountain of knowledge and I appreciate the help!

The Lee crimp die or changing molds to a 125 grain made for this.

The NOE 360-160 mold that came in the same bundle might be my better choice, crimp in the top groove. I better examine that one for how it works out OAL and through the action wise. It should easily work with .38 special cases. Might be long for .357 cases in the 1873.

Well at least I have about 400 cast and need to be further sized to .357 for the 9mm. ��

[Lance Boyle]

Ok, wandering back upstairs from the underground lair and secret laboratory I am seeing the NOE 360-160 has a crimp groove pretty much dead on to give me the same OAL as the the 358-135 action proving dummies that successfully worked.

So I will give up the notion of being extra stingy with the lead and expend the extra 25 grains of lead per shell. Probably have a better chance to regulate to the ladder sight on the gun anyhow (although I doubt that it is really regulated to anything). Like I am going to do some Clint Eastwood movie shot with a levergun shooting a rope at 400 yards. I simply don’t have the background music to pull off that shot.

For now I am using wheel weight lead. Down the road for paper punching do you think switching to 30:1 or even 40:1 may work in the 18.5” barrel?


15 bucks for the crimp die. Pretty hard to argue with that pricing.

[hc18flyer]

'Blondie'- Sorry Shortie!

[Screwbolts]

I know many think Midway is the best but Not all Do!

Cast Boolitz actually has a sponsor/supporter that goes under the fine name of "Titan Reloading" and if one was to look at the top of this page one would find a link to them. It is so self evident that doing business with one of our sponsors is a better deal not to mention that their price of the Collet style crimp die is $11.98

After opening Titan put this part number in their search engine 90813 and it will take you to the collet die.

[Lance Boyle]

I will look in to using our sponsor, thank you for the reminder!

[Hick]

What you are working toward should be fine. In a tube-fed rifle you don't have to worry quite as much about the crimp as you would with a revolver. In the revolver, the recoil jerks the case backward by the rim and can cause the bullets to back out. In the rifle, the magazine spring is the only thing pushing on the bullets, but they can still slide forward and back under recoil. Because of this the bullets can get shoved into the case, but only if the neck tension is really light-- because the spring doesn't apply nearly as much force as the recoil. So, with decent neck tension and a moderate crimp you should be fine.

[Wheelgun]

You’ll love Cimarron! 357 levers are just plain fun!!

I wouldn’t used the Noe 358-135fn in leverguns or revolvers. Not that there is anything “wrong” with it, I just like a boolit with a crimp groove. Just my personal preference…

The NOE 360-160 is a good boolit, I had good luck with it in 38spl or light-mid range 357s, you should also.
Mine fed well and was accurate, but it didn’t do anything my Lee 125gr didn’t with less lead. So, in my 357 leverguns I use the Lee 358-125rf, Lee 358-158rf and a Lee group-buy copy of the Lyman 358-156 swc.

if you’re wanting to save lead, the Lee 358-125rf is a great choice for punching paper or ringing steel while saving lead. It’s accurate, feeds like snot, and smacks steel hard. Mine has taken armadillos, coyotes and hogs out to 75yrds easily.

[Lance Boyle]

Thanks Wheelgun!

I went out yesterday to maiden the gun. I shot factory Federal .38 special 158 LRN at 50 yds and 100 yards. It’s point of impact was about 7.5” high at 50 yards and 5” High at 100 yards. Federal says it’s a mid 700 fps load in a test gun which likely has a short barrel. I had some reloads that were 158 SWC profile that I threw in the bag to test run them. Not bad, a little less smooth chambering but not bad. I am sure that wadcutter lip got mangled.

With the sights being off for that speed I was holding on the bottom edge of the paper. My wadcutters at 50 were the same 7.5” high and at 100 were just hitting the edge of the paper where I was holding so a smidge low to right on.

I’d like to get point of aim to point of impact much closer at 50.

I cannot as I see it change out the front sight easily as it’s forged part of the front band. So no easy Marbles swap.

So that leaves me with load adjustment. To get lower I need faster and or lighter bullets if my memory/understanding is correct. The rear is as low as it goes/ fixed when folded down and the ladder starts at 300. Ok, that may be a lark fooling around thing.

I am guessing the factory has regulated the sights to a .357 magnum load which I get but itsn’t as handy at the moment.

I did press on the 358-135 dummies I made on the bench. I cannot budge them. I even took a hard bound book and set it on the headstamp to let me push harder without discomfort to the meaty part of my hand. They’re not moving. They may not be 359” anymore either with that tight of a fix. I should whack a mole hammer one to remove and measure the diameter after seating and crimping.

I may try a small batch of them but your Lee 125 mold suggestion has more and more merit. I may buy some precast 125 and 105 bullets to see how they can be regulated to the sights.

It’d be handy to have a light load to the sights and without touching anything having a magnum heavy load regulated to the same point of impact. It’s a 73 so I don’t know why having a magnum load for hunting is all that necessary. Does it have to make sense?