Poor man's "Express" gun

[Milky Duck]

depending on the shotgun..the Oring may be surplus to requirements.... the one I got made up sits snugly in all my shotguns now except will now be loose in the astra cyclope in USED to live in and its too fat for top barrel in the U/O bakail....If I wanted to use in the astra again one or two layers of insulation tape would center it nicely.it was so snug in astra before if I oiled it..wouldnt fit in!!! turned it down just a smidgen.

[elmacgyver0]

Before you order or at least receive those inserts you might want to check the locations of their O-rings. That is if they are the Chaszel inserts. Those inserts use O-rings around the insert to center them in the shotgun bore so if the muzzle end O-ring is within 6" of the muzzle you will be cutting it off or it will be sticking out of the bore.

Okay then I just looked and yes, the O-ring grooves are near the muzzle so you might want to cancel and re-order 18" inserts or be prepared to have new O-Ring groove(s) machined or use a sleeve of some sort.



Longbow

I am well aware of that, if for some reason I want to use the O-rings I will just cut new grooves in the inserts.
What I don't want is the inserts to end 4 inches back from the muzzles.
Once I have the inserts in hand, I will decide how to deal with them.
I assume these inserts have no method of regulation unless I come up with it, of which I do have some ideas but can only stay as ideas until I get my grubby little hands on them.
Then there is the question of extractors, it appears you are to use a fingernail for that, I may not be satisfied with that, we'll see.

[ulav8r]

If you use screws to adjust the muzzle, keep them as close to the cut point as possible. The further the cut is from the screws the more possibility there will be a change in impact point after the cut.

[elmacgyver0]

I have some ideas but won't know the feasibility of them until I have the inserts.
I am not planning on using any kind of set screw, but I will not rule anything out at this point.
I just as soon not drill any holes in the barrels.

[longbow]

I'll definitely be interested in your solution for regulation!

In the meantime I will have to see if the Chaszel inserts are available in Canada. I hope so!

Longbow

[elmacgyver0]

I'll definitely be interested in your solution for regulation!

In the meantime I will have to see if the Chaszel inserts are available in Canada. I hope so!

Longbow

IF, I come up with a solution.
I will certainly try.
I never thought I would ever be able to build a .50 BMG rifle, but I did, it is an ungainly monster, but it works, at least it did for the ten times I fired it.
I hope the inserts are available for you.

[elmacgyver0]

I have a pair of 20 gauge 410/45LC inserts I bought cheap years ago with the idea of building a Hooda pistol.
If I live long enough, I still may get around to it.
The inserts are only 7 inches long, so I haven't been too inclined to use them in a shotgun.

[jaguarxk120]

You might want to pattern that coach gun first.
Many of those guns have barrels regulated 3-4 ft. appart
or high and low to each other.

[longbow]

As it turns out the inserts are available through at least one outfit in Ontario. Same place I found TJ liners that have become difficult to get in Canada. I have an 1881 Marlin with a large and somewhat rough bore. Rifling is still pretty decent and it isn't nearly as bad as I had thought. In any case I looked for TJ's liners and they have become very difficult to get here but a place in Ontasrio imports those and the Chaszel inserts. The Chaszel inserts run $260 CDN each for 24" and $225 CDN for 18".

I am back looking for a side by to experiment with. I haven't decided yet which way to go. If I buy a cheap 12 ga. to chop off I am thinking the barrel regulation won't be as good as a better qaulity gun. Maybe yes, maybe no. Who knows? Side by's of any grade likely won't be regulated anywhere near as good as a dedicated double rifle.

I have also toyed with buying a Stoeger Supreme coach gun as they are threaded for choke tubes so two rifled choke tubes could be installed for a "poor man's Paradox gun". Same issue with regulation though. If it is acceptable then great but if not the inserted would have to be regulated by some form of adjustment. Also, I'd prefer 22" or 24" barrels to 20" barrels of a coach gun.

If I can find a decent Sauer, Merckle, Husky or BRNO side by inexpensively one of those or equivalent might be a good choice. I suppose if it doesn't work out and I want to sell the shotgun after it would be useable as a coach gun or handy double slug gun for bear defense so likely not much if any money lost. Also, for me the idea of a cape gun works too so one liner sighted and one barrel left as is for birdshot, buckshot or slugs.

Time and budget will tell the tale! I am retired so limited toy budget. If two inserts cost me $520 + another $400 to $700 approx for a used "nice" side by or new Stoeger that's about $1000 to $1200 total.

I will certrainly be interested in your results.

Longbow

[elmacgyver0]

I already have the shotgun so the cost is minimal, or I would not consider it.

[elmacgyver0]

You might want to pattern that coach gun first.
Many of those guns have barrels regulated 3-4 ft. appart
or high and low to each other.

I don't care where it throws shot.
Once it has the inserts, then comes the fun.
If I can get it to hit a paper plate at 100 yards, I will be delighted, but at this point that may be wishful thinking.

[jaguarxk120]

You may want to try Brenneke slug's at 25 or 50 yards.
That will really tell you how the barrels will shoot.

[elmacgyver0]

Well, I guess my project will have to wait a bit.
I got the inserts, only they are the wrong ones.
What I got is two .410 inserts 16 inches long for 9mm.
Chaszel Is sending me the correct ones and a return label for the wrong ones.
...it happens.

[elmacgyver0]

I just got a notice from UPS that says the inserts are arriving tomorrow, that usually means if I'm lucky I might get them Saturday.

[longbow]

I am waiting anxiously! I am living vicariously through your project currently!

Just as some encouragement I found this link to results from a Baikal with inserts (factory rifle but inserts in a shotgun):

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=267162

Not sure if he can do that on demand or what group size would be if he shot 3 from each barrel, even cooling down between shots, but it shows potential for what can be done and in reality if both barrels will group withing 4" or so at 100 yards that would be pretty decent.

I am back to looking for suitable/affordable shotguns!

Longbow

[elmacgyver0]

I would imagine that an old Savage 311 would be ideal if you don't mind not having external hammers.
They used to be cheap but don't know what they go for these days.

[country gent]

Im looking at the stoger uplander with 26" barrels as the donor gun 499.00 I think. but again no hammers. I have an e-mail in inquiring about the receivers manufacture, casting , billet, or forging havent heard back yet.

[elmacgyver0]

I am feeling kind of bad; I realize I am hijacking daleraby's thread, I should start my own I guess, and will do so if requested.

[longbow]

I'm actually thinking of a Stoeger Coachgun Supreme because it comes with choke tubes so offers more flexibility to try liners, rifled choke tubes or smoothbore plus it has 3" chambers which I'd like. If it worked with the inserts then it is a double rifle. If regulation wasn't good enough and eccentric collars or whatever don't work out then it could be a cape gun with one insert or back to being shotgun. Plus it would likely sell easier than a chopped down "other" used gun.

There are a number of relatively inexpensive European doubles available here... Sauer, BRNO, Husky, Merckle and other with reasonable looking guns from about $300 to $600 CDN. Almost all are 2 3/4" chambers and to get them threaded for choke tubes runs $180 per barrel so not too attractive. They'd be fine for cutting down and installing inserts but if that didn't go well enough then it is just a short shotgun that might sell to a CAS shooter but I wouldn't have a lot of use for it. The Stoeger is more expensive but offers more options and likely better resale value if it comes to that. The downside is it has 20" barrels and I'd prefer at least 22" but not a big deal and 18" inserts would fit.

We'll see when I have more toy money.

Longbow

[elmacgyver0]

I just received the inserts, they look great.
Had them in my Chinese coach gun and there is plenty of room to get them regulated.
The easiest way to regulate the barrels would be to use aluminum duct tape.
Even if you didn't want to leave it that way it would tell you what you need to do to get close with your offset (eccentric) bushings.
I may end up using my old New Baker shotgun for this.
I didn't want to modify it, but I found a set of barrels on Ebay that look like they may fit so I went ahead and bought them.
If I can't make them work, I'm only out 200 dollars. If I can, I will use the worst set for the inserts and cut them down to match.
I will find out in about a week.