1911 and Ballester-Molina

[Hick]

I happen to be the proud owner of a 1950 vintage Ballester-Molina 45 and a 2022 vintage 1911 in 45. Recently I was browsing another gun site that will remain unnamed and found a thread about the Ballester-Molina that rather surprised me ("piece of crap, not remotely like a 1911, etc, etc). Some 'expert' explained that the Ballester-Molina looks like a 1911 but that the only part that interchanges is the magazine.

When I first acquired my Ballester-Molina the barrel was shot out, so It had to be refurbished, and the gunsmith simply replaced the barrel with a standard 45 acp barrel-- so I was pretty sure they exchange. But that was before I got a real 1911. So, today I did a little experiment. I dug into my parts box and found that original shot out B-M barrel, then I took the barrel bushing, recoil spring, spring guide and spring retainer out of both pistols. Then, I installed the original B-M barrel, B-M barrel bushing, and all the B-M spring parts into the 1911. Perfect fit, tight lockup and even the tiny gap between the frame feed ramp and the barrel looked good.

Now-- I'm not suggesting that I should take that gun out and shoot it that way without checking with a competent gunsmith-- but given that the parts fit so good without even adjusting anything it seems to me they are interchangeable.

[Kosh75287]

I've shot a whole 50 rounds through a SINGLE Ballester-Molina .45 ACP, and only field stripped it for cleaning. I WILL say that the B-M shot pretty well for an "old war horse" type of pistol. When I had it apart, it looked quite similar to every 1911A1 I've disassembled. In retrospect, I would not have been surprised to find that more than the magazines would interchange between them.
I suspect that Ballester-Molina sought to produce a sidearm of proven power and design, while not running afoul of patent restrictions. To that end, they changed some things (mercifully, they deleted the silly grip safety), which inevitably reduces interchangeability. Beyond the magazine and the barrel & link system, there might not be much more that interchanges, but I'd be happy to learn that I'm wrong.
If I was issued a Ballester-Molina .45 ACP and could run a box of ball through it without any problems, I would consider myself adequately armed for any confrontation in which a larger firearm is not involved. Ditto the Norwegian iterations.

[Bigslug]

I've wondered about this over the years - your post prompted me to get a little nerdy and look up the B-M's schematic on Numrich's site.

I think that the slide and many components in the top half would be MOSTLY interchangeable if not for one key difference:

The 1911's disconnector sits on the centerline of the frame, is acted upon by the rear-facing flat of the rear of the trigger bow (which wraps completely around the inside of the mag well), and serves as the link between the trigger and the sear. When the slide returns to battery, the center leaf of the sear spring pushes the disconnector upward into a half-moon cut in the slide - also on the centerline of the pistol - where it re-establishes the link that allows the pistol to fire.

The BM's trigger bar wraps around the right side of the mag well only, and the disconnector rides on top of it. Presumably, the B-M's slide would need to have a corresponding cut on its right side for the disconnector to rise into when the slide is in battery, allowing the trigger bar to rise back into engagement with the sear.

So my guess is that you can exchange barrels, barrel bushings, barrel links, recoil spring parts, extractors, firing pin parts and stops, but the actual slides would be a functional no-go. I suppose they might have milled the B-M's slide with two disconnector cuts in case someone needed to play Frankengun with their model 1927 (licensed 1911-A1 clone), but the swap would not work the other way.

Have a look at your guns for those differences and fill us in.

[Hick]

I've wondered about this over the years - your post prompted me to get a little nerdy and look up the B-M's schematic on Numrich's site.

I think that the slide and many components in the top half would be MOSTLY interchangeable if not for one key difference:

The 1911's disconnector sits on the centerline of the frame, is acted upon by the rear-facing flat of the rear of the trigger bow (which wraps completely around the inside of the mag well), and serves as the link between the trigger and the sear. When the slide returns to battery, the center leaf of the sear spring pushes the disconnector upward into a half-moon cut in the slide - also on the centerline of the pistol - where it re-establishes the link that allows the pistol to fire.

The BM's trigger bar wraps around the right side of the mag well only, and the disconnector rides on top of it. Presumably, the B-M's slide would need to have a corresponding cut on its right side for the disconnector to rise into when the slide is in battery, allowing the trigger bar to rise back into engagement with the sear.

So my guess is that you can exchange barrels, barrel bushings, barrel links, recoil spring parts, extractors, firing pin parts and stops, but the actual slides would be a functional no-go. I suppose they might have milled the B-M's slide with two disconnector cuts in case someone needed to play Frankengun with their model 1927 (licensed 1911-A1 clone), but the swap would not work the other way.

Have a look at your guns for those differences and fill us in.

Absolutely right. The front part of the slide is the same as the 1911 to handle the barrel and all that, but the trigger change moved everything to the right side so the slides are too different. One thing I found interesting is that the groove dimensions where the slide goes on the frame are just slightly different-- just enough that you cannot put the wrong slide on the wrong frame. Knowing that the Argentines had both the Colt 1911A1 and the B-M in service at the same time, I always wondered if that was done on purpose.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Too bad that the fellow on the other forum chose to slander a very fine pistol. I own several, and think highly of them. They way I've read their history is not that Ballister sought to circumvent the Colt patents. In fact, they adopted the 1911 and at first had them produced by Colt, but later bought a set of tooling and produced them in Argentina. The Argentine Govt. wished to have a native designed pistol, an old story in many countries. They specified that the barrels and magazines interchange with the Colt, but other than the barrel bushing, recoil spring, recoil spring guide, and cap nothing else interchanges. In fact, once you turn your attention to the frame you will find the lock work to be entirely different, and in the main copied from the Spanish Star pistols.

Still somewhat on point I hope, and interesting, first couple of years of production Ballister pistols produced were stamped Ballister-Rigaud. Rigaud was a Frenchman, and the son-in-law of Ballister. Rigaud left the firm, and the pistol became the Ballister-Molina. Molina was the head engineer and plant foreman. Except for the name change, the pistols remained unchanged. The British purchased a large quantity of the Ballisters from Argentina for issue to clandestine troops during WW II, not wishing weapons that were subsequently captured to be traced to Britain. They are identifiable for collectors, though, as the serial number is preceded by a "B". Since the Colt was in production and in use I theorize that they figured that they were already producing the barrels and magazines and might as well stay with them.

Here are a couple of mine:

Note that this one has the "B". It is in excellent condition and was purchased with one without the "B" from an old gent who participated in WW II. He was English, but I only met him once and we didn't talk about his past activities, so maybe........ I read once, a rumor that was said to be a rumor, that a large quantity remain stored inside Gibraltar.

The top pistol is the other of the two I purchased from the English gent, now about 25 years ago, and the bottom pistol is a Rigaud, readable if you are able to increase the size of the photo, but does not have the "B".

Here's one of the Argentine Colts.



I never cared for the vertically grooved original grips, so I've always replaced them (but kept the originals in a box). Most Ballisters encountered now days are well worn. One of mine has a Colt barrel replacement, but I don't recall which at the moment. To answer a question sort of asked in the posts above, if you trade out all the original parts with Colt (or clone) parts the pistol will be perfectly safe to fire.

One of the World's great pistols!

DG

[Larry Gibson]

"I was browsing another gun site that will remain unnamed and found a thread about the Ballester-Molina that rather surprised me ("piece of crap, not remotely like a 1911, etc, etc). Some 'expert' explained that the Ballester-Molina looks like a 1911 but that the only part that interchanges is the magazine."

Many an "expert" out there.........

[Bigslug]

The biggest plus of the grip safety is that the cutout to install it in the frame allows the 1911 to have the one thing that makes it ergonomically superior to pretty much everything else: installation of a trigger that fires by sliding straight to the rear instead of pivoting up and backwards on a pin at its 12:00.

Not a lot to choose between them otherwise. . .except of course for today's massive logistical juggernaut that supports the 1911 with spare parts.

[Rockindaddy]

The Ballester=Molina 45 is great automatic big bore automatic that will function and work as well as a Colt 1911. Years ago I bought a pair of Ballester's taken apart resting in a shoebox. Had to pay $50 each. Took my $100 shoebox home and proceeded to assemble the two. Was only able to get one gun assembled and working. The other gun needed a sear and a hammer, spring and a barrel and bushing. Was able to find a sear for $12 plus postage. No hammers available. Had to restyle and fit a Colt 1911 hammer. It worked. A Colt barrel and spring and bushing fit too. Had no grips or grip screws. My grandson liked my Ballester. I let him shoot it. Big mistake! Now he was wanting a gun of his own. I showed him the other gun that had no grips or screws and had no finish. Told him if he hand sanded and polished the old rusty beater gun I would throw it in the blue tank and he could have it. He spent a week hand sanding and polishing it to look like my WW I Colt 1911 We blued the gun. I made up a set of screws for it. The gun was lookin pretty good now. Now all it needed was a set of grips that are unobtanium. That kid had one of those 3-D printers. Somehow he found a Ballester Molina grip program and plastic printed a set of grips!!! His Ballester now looks better than mine. He is pretty good shooting my dueling tree in the back yard too! Makes me smile when he shows up with his hand built Ballester and rings the iron!!!

[Texas by God]

i

Amen to the above! I have found the Ballester.45s to be excellent pistols.
I bought my first one from Springfield Sporters for something like $125 back in the 1980s. I polished the feed ramp and replaced the itty bitty sights and shot it a bunch! I gave it to my BIL and he loves it. It’s the one being shot in Arizona- I can’t believe that the slide didn’t hit his thumb!
The other one was given to me by a Cuz in the High Plains. It had no bluing and has a 1911 barrel. I replaced the sights, lowered the ejection port, and replaced the grips.
I painted it with Lauer coat 2 part paint and baked it.
I carry it hunting and have taken quite a variety of animals with it.
I don’t currently own a Colt 1911/1911A1- but I have and the BM matches them in quality but not looks.
I’ve owned a couple of the 1927 FMAP 1911s and they match the Colts easily.


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[El Bibliotecario]

... I ... found a thread about the Ballester-Molina that rather surprised me ("piece of crap, not remotely like a 1911, etc, etc). Some 'expert' explained that the Ballester-Molina looks like a 1911 but that the only part that interchanges is the magazine...

It's been my observation there is a direct correlation between arbitrary vilification and stupidity.

[alfadan]

I have a Ballerina-Molestor. Great pistol.

The barrel was worn out so I replaced it with a "drop-in" Wilson Combat barrel; it works great.
I believe it is more a licensed copy of a Spanish Star pistol (model B?) and lacks the grip safety of the 1911.

[elmacgyver0]

Juan Peron seemed to like them.

[Rockindaddy]

That was Bill Rogers that owned Springfield Sporters. He was quite a guy. Bill always treated me great. He was a WW II veteran US Marine in the Japanese Islands. Bill did not like the Japs! They were an enemy that would not surrender he would say. Bought my two Ballester Molinas dismantled in a shoe box from the Springfield Sporters for a wooping $50 each. Bill was importing surplus guns and ammo from Argentina at that time in the 1980's. Still have my Ballester. Its my pickup truck gun. Good to hear your story Texas by God!!!

[Hick]

I have a Ballerina-Molestor. Great pistol.

The barrel was worn out so I replaced it with a "drop-in" Wilson Combat barrel; it works great.
I believe it is more a licensed copy of a Spanish Star pistol (model B?) and lacks the grip safety of the 1911.

Not far off. The engineers responsible for the Ballester-Molina were very familiar with the Star and were commissioned by the Argentine Government to come up with a less expensive variation of the Argentine Systema 27 (Colt licensed 1911 A1), while still keeping the 1911-A1 barrel and magazine.