Reloading for 32 French or 7.65 French Long

[mtnman31]

I've been trying my hand at reloading this unique little cartridge. I've had decent results reloading and shooting cast RN bullets. The cast bullets are sized .313". I really want to see what the gun is capable of with jacketed bullets. The problem is that I can't get decent neck tension to hold jacketed bullets in the cases. I'm using 32 ACP dies which are built to load .312" bullets. When using jacketed bullets of the proper .308" diameter, there is not sufficient neck tension to seat or hold the bullets in case. I'm using Starline brass, which I am thinking has case walls that are on the thinner side of what is needed. When I use modified .32 S&W Long cases, I can get decent neck tension. Obviously, the modified .32 S&W L cases have slightly thicker case walls than the Starline 32 French brass. I've only got few cases made from .32 S&W Long and they are a lot of work to get made. Plus, I've got a box of the correct Starline 7.65 Long brass to use. I'm thinking of getting a .30 Carbine die set to modify by cutting down in length. The .30 carbine has a slightly smaller case mouth than .32 ACP and should theoretically size the Starline brass down just a hair more than the .32 ACP dies are sizing it. I figure I can cut down a 30 Carbine die to a length that will accommodate the shorter 32 French case. Has anyone tried this or have thoughts on it?

Cartridge dimensions for .32 French show a mouth diameter of .335" while .32 ACP has a mouth diameter of .337". I can't find any other cartridges with the same diameter mouth as the .32 French. Even .30 Carbine is listed as .336". You'd think a thousandth or two wouldn't make a whole world of difference in a pistol cartridge. But, in this case, that thousandth or two difference is resulting in the jacketed bullets dropping into the cases with no neck tension. My other thoughts are come up with a quick way to hold a neck sizing bushing and try that as a sizer. Lastly, 30-30 has a neck diameter of .330". I could try hacking up a 30-30 die to see if that would work as a better sizer. Any other ideas or better way to get this cartridge properly loaded?

Before anyone suggests it, no, I'm not special ordering an expensive/custom die set to reload this cartridge. It's a $200 dollar pistol and I'm not spending 150-200 on custom dies from CH4D or RCBS to shoot it.

[schutzen-jager]

back when the pistols were sold for $19.95 many buyers converted them to .32acp - .30 M1 carbine case mouths were cut off to proper length + used to bush chamber to .32acp specs - no other modifications needed to springs or magazine for it to function properly + pistol could be restored to original by removing bushing with a plumbers ez out - only reference i could find on this was an old gun board post from 1969 - if i find the exact instructions in my 70 plus year reference accumulation i will post a copy - quote --


[ Years ago I read about using a bit of .30 carbine case "neck" pressed into the chamber of one of these so it could shoot .32ACP. The bit of carbine case created a step in the chamber to create proper headspace. Don't remember where I read it and have no idea if it really works or is safe. Seems like it would work ]

[elmacgyver0]

back when the pistols were sold for $19.95 many buyers converted them to .32acp - .30 M1 carbine case mouths were cut off to proper length + used to bush chamber to .32acp specs - no other modifications needed to springs or magazine for it to function properly + pistol could be restored to original by removing bushing with a plumbers ez out - only reference i could find on this was an old gun board post from 1969 - if i find the exact instructions in my 70 plus year reference accumulation i will post a copy - quote --


[ Years ago I read about using a bit of .30 carbine case "neck" pressed into the chamber of one of these so it could shoot .32ACP. The bit of carbine case created a step in the chamber to create proper headspace. Don't remember where I read it and have no idea if it really works or is safe. Seems like it would work ]

I don't know where you got your information, but a long time ago I had a 1935 French pistol chambered in 32 French long bought out of the back of a American Rifleman Magazine in a kinder gentler time when you didn't have to sign your life away to buy a gun.
Even with the chamber bushed .32acp will not work, the rim is too big.
The rim on the .32 French Long is rebated like a 9mm.
Being a stupid kid at the time I bushed the chamber like you suggested, but the semi-rim would not fit the breach face, so I used a bench grinder and ground off the semi-rim so they would fit.
The modified cartridges would fire fine in the pistol but would not cycle the action.
The French Long is considerably more energetic then the .32acp.

[rintinglen]

Oh lord, this brings back a memory from the late 80's. My good friend Rick, RIP, bought a 1935 A and was unable to find ammo or brass for it. So, we set out to make brass. The optimal parent case is the 32 S&W long, but we had a pile of 30 carbine brass. First things first, we ran the brass through a 30 Carbine sizer/decapper and then had to turn out the crimp on the primers. That done, we put the cases in a large jar with hot, soapy water and shook them up for about 5 minutes to clean them, then used his wife's hairdryer to dry them. This took up most of a Saturday Afternoon.

Sunday, we went onto the next phase. Some where he had scrounged up a piece of 5/8 inch steel. He found a chart that showed that a letter drill of disremembered size would make a hole that we could polish out to an appropriate size to reduce the head and base from roughly .358 down to .337. We used his drill press, an old Craftsman, IIRC. and in much more time than it takes to tell, we had succeeded in boring the hole. We used a 32 ACP round as a pin gauge and polished the hole using a large nail that we split with a Dremel cutoff wheel after cutting off the head. A piece of fine crocus cloth pushed into the split end of the nail was spun into the hole until we had polished it smooth and the 32 cartridge would just fit into the hole snuggly.

We used another nail, to make a punch, some STP Oil Treatment as lube, and proceeded to pound the empty 30 carbine cases into the hole. This did not go quite as smoothly as we had hoped, because failing to keep the hammer face parallel to the base of the case invariably resulted in the rim being "smooshed." (A technical term describing the bent and slanted appearance resulting from the impact.) The cases were then driven out of the hole using our second nail suitably modified as a punch. In just a few (like 5) hours, we managed to create 50+ usable cases. All that was left was to shorten the cases to the proper length, ream the modified case with a 5/16th's reamer to a depth of about a 3rd of an inch, file the excess metal from the extractor groove while spinning the case in the Drill press, clean up the rim until it would fit in an RCBS number 17 shell holder, then just load normally. That would take up the next week end.

The cases were chopped to roughly .990 using a chop saw and a piece of 1 x2 with a hole drilled in it as a jig. Next, we turned each case in a Foster case trimmer to true and clean up the end while shortening the case to what ever length it was that Cartridges of the World said was correct. Then our cases were pushed back into our hole, one at a time and then positioned on the drill press for reaming. After reaming, each case was inserted in the drill press to clean up the rims and recut the extactor grooves. Once all that was done, He reloaded them, using 32 ACP dies and RCBS 32-84 Boolits as cast. Only took us 2 weekends.

[elmacgyver0]

Wherever I said .32 French Long, I meant 7.65 French Long.

[cwtebay]

Have you tried a Lee Factory Crimp Die? I reload for it and used a 32 S&W FCD die forever. I then got a Lee die set that was correct.
Betting a 30 Super Carry FCD is your answer though.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[BP Dave]

The Starline brass is a little thin, and .308 is on the small side for bullet diameter, which probably accounts for your neck tension issue. The French C.I.P. (something like our SAAMI) lists the bullet diameter as 7.88mm, which is just over .310.

I've used some .310 jacketed bullets with Starline brass and Lee 7.65 French dies (from https://maf-arms.com) which seem to work OK.

[challenger_i]

A buddy of mine that lives in your neck of the woods has been loading for 30 Pederson/7.65 French Long for several years. In the days before type-specific brass became available, he fabricated his cases from 32 S&W Long by trimming the rim and cutting the extractor groove with a special tool, and a mini lathe. Now that Starline supplies brass, Life is simpler for him.
As for bullets, he has had very good luck using bullets for the 30 Mauser. Also, Hornady has an FTX that has a diameter of .309" that he has had success with.
Before he dropped the coin for a set of C4H 7.65 French dies, he seated the bullet with a set-back 32 ACP die, then final crimped with a 30 Lugar seating die with the bullet seating stem removed.

[shooting on a shoestring]

My thought is it doesn’t matter if a book says 0.308” is the proper bullet diameter. The guy that built the barrel might not have read that book. What matters is the actual dimensions of your barrel are. There’s a real good chance 0.312” bullets will work. Measure and see.

[dtknowles]

You can make your own sizer or use something you might have. First, do you have a bullet sizer of the proper diameter, like say for an 8mm, 0.323" or 0.324". I think that might fix you up. I have sized brass in my lubrisizer, it works if the cases are short enough. That might be too tight and you might need to use an expander to get the mouth right for your bullet. If you have a Lee push thru sizer that might work as well.

Option 2 make a sizer out of a washer. Just open up the hole in the washer to the size you need, deburr, chamfer or polish the hole so the case will go in and not crush. Even better use a really thick washer or a piece of plate or a nut and make the hole tapered. You then put a die in your press with a bigger opening and hold the washer under the die while you use the press to press the case into the washer. Then put the case and washer over some other thing with an opening and use a punch to push the case back out. I did this with 50-70 brass until I got some dies. With the 50-70 the washer was big diameter and thick so I did not need to put a die in the press just held the washer under the die opening. Remember to lube the cases. You could probably rig something even better with some thought.

Someone mentioned that maybe you should use a larger diameter bullet, I agree with them but I can't tell you where to find them. I measured two different pieces 32 French ammo in my collection they measured 0.330" at the case mouth.

One more idea, if you get that .30 carbine sizer, don't cut it down, put a punch (like the Lee Push Thru sizer) in the shell holder and push the case into the .30 carbine die to the point where the case is sized properly and then drive the case back out with a punch like with wack- a-mole dies.

Tim

[Outpost75]

What are the differences in dimensions between the 7.65x20mm French Longue and the new .30 Super Carry? Just curious....

[rintinglen]

Interesting thought, there Outpost.

Except for the slightly greater length (.827 vs. .776) most of the other dimensions of the 30 super carry are within a couple of thousandths of those of the 7.65 x 20. I would think that this would be the easiest way to make brass--If you can find the 30 Super carry. Trim it to length, lube it, and run it through the 32 ACP sizer and I think you'd be off to the races. An Accurate 31-88c ought to be just the thing for this cartridge.

[dtknowles]

Interesting thought, there Outpost.

Except for the slightly greater length (.827 vs. .776) most of the other dimensions of the 30 super carry are within a couple of thousandths of those of the 7.65 x 20. I would think that this would be the easiest way to make brass--If you can find the 30 Super carry. Trim it to length, lube it, and run it through the 32 ACP sizer and I think you'd be off to the races. An Accurate 31-88c ought to be just the thing for this cartridge.

Yeah, but he said he had brass already just need the bullets to fit or it to fit the bullet.

Tim

[challenger_i]

7.65x20 French Long

Bullet diameter 7.85 mm (0.309 in)
Land diameter 7.65 mm (0.301 in)
Neck diameter 8.50 mm (0.335 in)
Base diameter 8.53 mm (0.336 in)
Rim diameter 8.50 mm (0.335 in)
Case length 19.70 mm (0.776 in)
Overall length 30.24 mm (1.191 in)

30 Super Carry

Bullet diameter 0.312 in (7.925 mm)
Land diameter 0.303 in (7.70 mm)
Neck diameter 0.337 in (8.56 mm)
Shoulder diameter 0.338 in (8.59 mm)
Base diameter 0.342 in (8.70 mm)
Rim diameter 0.344 in (8.74 mm)
Rim thickness 0.050 in (1.27 mm)
Case length 0.827 in (21.0 mm)
Overall length 1.169 in (29.7 mm)

[ascast]

You might find something in the Ideal 310 tool pile. those were / are neck size only. Adapters for standard press threads are all over the place. Same with Belding and Mull press -all neck size.These would also have a wide variety of expander plugs. Otherwise I like the 30-30 chop. BEWARE ! Make sure your chop leaves you with the part you want and threads to mount......don't ask...

[schutzen-jager]

I don't know where you got your information, but a long time ago I had a 1935 French pistol chambered in 32 French long bought out of the back of a American Rifleman Magazine in a kinder gentler time when you didn't have to sign your life away to buy a gun.
Even with the chamber bushed .32acp will not work, the rim is too big.
The rim on the .32 French Long is rebated like a 9mm.
Being a stupid kid at the time I bushed the chamber like you suggested, but the semi-rim would not fit the breach face, so I used a bench grinder and ground off the semi-rim so they would fit.
The modified cartridges would fire fine in the pistol but would not cycle the action.
The French Long is considerably more energetic then the .32acp.

conversion performed perfectly for me + many others back than - extraction worked perfectly without any modifications - was yours the model 1935a or model 1935s ? - might be different chamber or other differences -

for informational purposes here is the section from a 1970 gunsmithing book by J.B. WOOD that worked for me back then -

[mtnman31]

The Starline brass is a little thin, and .308 is on the small side for bullet diameter, which probably accounts for your neck tension issue. The French C.I.P. (something like our SAAMI) lists the bullet diameter as 7.88mm, which is just over .310.

I've used some .310 jacketed bullets with Starline brass and Lee 7.65 French dies (from https://maf-arms.com) which seem to work OK.

Nice, I was not aware that someone made a die set for this cartridge. It's currently 75 bucks which is a bit more reasonable than the RCBS/CH4D offerings.

I appreciate the replys on this thread. I don't want to convert it to 32 ACP becasue I have the proper brass and frankly, the .32 ACP gives up a little velocity compared to the 32 French. I sized some .30 carbine brass and after sizing the case mouth measured .330". If I can find a cheap 30 carbine die to cut down, I think that is going to be my first choice on tackling this. As mentioned by challenger-i, the Hornady XTP 90 gr bullet should work well. I've got the XTP bullets and they have done well for me when I use them in .30 Luger.

Anyone have any load data suggestions to share? I've used Unique with my cast bullets and it worked fairly decent. I also have seen a couple recipes using Power Pistol and Blue Dot.

[mtnman31]

You might find something in the Ideal 310 tool pile. those were / are neck size only. Adapters for standard press threads are all over the place. Same with Belding and Mull press -all neck size.These would also have a wide variety of expander plugs. Otherwise I like the 30-30 chop. BEWARE ! Make sure your chop leaves you with the part you want and threads to mount......don't ask...

ascast, that is a good suggestion and actually one of the first things I tried. I don't have a big selection of 310 dies, but I do have a 30 Carbine set as well as a press adapter. I tried using the 30 Carbine die to size the brass but the die is too long to get the 32 Long brass into the sizing area of the die. I don't want to cut down the 310 die because it is a complete set and in good condition.

[Thumbcocker]

A now deceased casting mentor of mine told me about this. He mentioned using steel case .30 carbine. He swore it worked fine.

[schutzen-jager]

A now deceased casting mentor of mine told me about this. He mentioned using steel case .30 carbine. He swore it worked fine.

my findings exactly - re. post #16