Why neck sizing was popular

[Shopdog]

OK,competitive shooters at the levels presented in this video,shoot how many factory barrels?

So give up neck sizing to hold the case firmly against the bolt face,historically,in an age where cases were so cheap we'd run them till they got tight then go get more..... to where competitive shooters now,overwhelmingly utilize bullet jam,basically accomplishing the same thing?

Another kinda misconception; which wears out first? A sizing die or a gilt edge competition barrel? Which then begs the question...which should come first,the die or the barrel's chamber?

Next,consider as industry standards(not one off,I know a guy stuff).... which process,die making or barrel chambering utilizes the more sophisticated equipment?

How many cast rifle bullets does EC shoot in a week? Year? (The notion of reduced loads vs full power loads effect on case equilibrium)

To the OP,should I go on?

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Adjusting/using the full length sizing die to get that .001-.002 shoulder setback is the key. You can simply take fired brass and start with the sizing die backed off and slowly turn in until the case shoulder is bumped and cases chamber easily. I use Redding Competitive shell holders, +.002-+.010 and size using them. I have several rifles in .308, .243, and .300 Savage, I keep the brass separate for each rifle with a note which plus shell holder to use, +.006 is common but one does +.008, another +.004. At one time I did have a sizing die adjusted to each rifle. I have measured shoulder lengths but Redding Competition shell holders simplify things and work for rimmed, rimless, and belted cases. For mild loads, neck sizing works for a while but then full length sizing may be needed.

[Larry Gibson]

Anyone happen to watch the first five min of the video I posted...I'm just curious

Yes, I watched considerably more than that. I found it quite interesting.

Whether or not neck sizing is better than full length or even shoulder bumping is one of those topics that has no set rule or answer for every rifle. Note in the first 5 minutes Mr. Borden explains how he modified commercial bolts to fit precisely in their actions (Borden Bumps) explaining how that helped accuracy. He then went on to manufacture his own bolts and actions with that level of precision built in. Also consider the tight tolerances of BR rifle chambers and the custom sizers made specifically for them compared to the +/- SAAMI and milspec spec chambers, the bolts made to fit any action they were made for. A lot of difference there and what applies to the one doesn't necessarily apply to the other.

As Der Gebirgsjager pointed out, there are numerous reasons to neck size with many of the rifles we use. This is especially the case with most of the cast bullet loads we use. The pressures developed by many, if not most of the cast bullet loads we use are such that the expansion of the case is so minimal it will take many firings before the case begins to bind the bolt/action/barrel when the bolt is closed.

Even with higher pressure loaded cartridges used in most commercial/milsurp actions neck sizing most often gives better accuracy. That is because the fire formed case tends to align the bolt with the concentricity of the chamber bore. A full length sized or factory case in standard factory chambers, especially with bolts having a plunger ejector, will not lay concentric to the axis of the chamber/bore. Also, many rifles and ammunition combinations simply do not have the accuracy capability to really tell the difference between NS'd or FL sized cartridges.

However, many rifles can tell the difference. If you seek the best accuracy and/or long case life then you might want to try, at least, FL sizing with the die properly adjusted as has been mentioned, or with fire formed neck sized. If you spent many dollars for a BR actioned custom rifle then you may want to pay close attention to what Mr. Borden said. If not, then find out what works best in your own rifle.

I only neck sized my cast bullet match loads for my M70 target 308W rifle, My M39 Finn 7.62x57R used for CBA matches and my HV 30-60 XCB. I also just neck sized all of my cast bullet loads for every other rifle/cartridges that i shoot. Full length sizing provides no advantage to accuracy and often shortens case life. Now, if I had a super expensive, super slick BR rifle I would probably use a custom bump die.

Here's a 300 yard F Class target I shot last month. There are 46 shots there, 6 sighters and 40 for record. Aggregate score was 400 with 35 Xs. Rifle was a M700 with an 8" twist Kreiger barrel [built by MBT aka goodsteel on this forum] chambered in 223 Rem. Cases were match prepped PMCs that were 3 times fired and neck sized with a Lee Target Loader. The load was 24.5 gr Varget, Federal 205 match primers and the Hornady 73 gr ELD Match bullet. The bolt still closes smoothly on the fire formed cases. When it becomes stiff to close I will partial FL resize the cases to a slight crush fit. From past experience that will be after 7 or 8 firings with the neck sized cases. Full length sized loads can give a 400 score but usually it's a 198 or 199 and the X count is never as high.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Wowwww! Great shooting!

DG

[Tripplebeards]

Yep, I never messed with any of the stuff over the decades and just lowered my die down a quarter inch past flush went full length sizing until I started loading for the 35 Remington a few years back and had issues with fail to fires. I bought a comparator gauge and started bumping my shoulders back 2000’s of an inch. I had some primer, sitting proud, and I don’t know if that happened from the brass shifting or if I just didn’t seat them flush or a below flush. I had a few that would fire on the second try, and some that wouldn’t fire at all. So between setting my shoulders back, just barely, so there was no shifting of the case when firing and making sure my primers were seated below flush with a nice firm squeeze from my handheld primer my fail to fires went away.

[slim1836]

I just wish I could remember what Larry has forgotten. Nice shooting.

Slim

[white eagle]

I do it to keep the shoulder of the chamber on my fired brass for a better fit than complete resizing of the case back to Sami specs
makes no difference to me the supposed loss of brass that would be inconsequential and minuscule
when the cases get to hard to chamber then I resize and push the shoulder
just my way is all

[rbuck351]

I use a fl die and adjust it to leave about .020 of the neck unsized. This leaves a bit of the neck close to chamber neck size to center the front of the case and leaves the base of the case closer to chamber size. I don't know how much this helps (haven't tested this) but it makes me feel better. I don't shoot competition so my accuracy requirements are in the 1"area. Good enough for my hunting requirements.

Neck sizing helps with loose chambers. Certainly not needed with custom built BR rifles and dies.

I did watch about 10 minutes of the video but I can't afford the type of action necessary to prevent neck sizing from helping which is why many folks neck size.

[M-Tecs]

By using a FL die to shoulder bump you still reduce the size of the case body.

When Eric Cortina says he full length resizes he's actually using a shoulder bump die and a bushing to size his brass, there is no resizing of the case body.

If your real careful with using a FL sizer to shoulder bump, just before you get to the point that the die shoulder contacts the case shoulder, you'll find that your headspace has grown because when the case body gets squeezed the brass has to go somewhere and that's up.

Nope

[tommag]

Anyone happen to watch the first five min of the video I posted...I'm just curious

At first I was only reading the replies, but you motivated me to watch it. I'm glad you did! I've understood the borden bumps for a long time, but the effect of the firing pin sloppiness is fascinating! It never would've occurred to me that the firing pin impact moving an imperceptible amount would have such a that much (or any) effect on poi.
I used to neck size in an effort to keep the cartridge centered in the chamber and bump the shoulder as needed after several loadings. I found it helped accuracy quite a bit.
I usually don't have the patience to watch videos, but I'm going to watch the whole thing as I find it fascinating. Thank you for posting it!

[Hick]

Neck sizing has it's place in reloading for cartridges fired in chambers with out-of-spec headspace. Most commonly encountered, .303 British and .30-40 Krag, but applies to any out-of-spec chamber where the cartridge brass stretches when fired. If full length resized back to factory specs the brass will stretch again on the next firing, and eventually (sooner than later with some cases) you'll experience cracks around the base of the cartridge and eventually complete head separation. Neck sizing only squeezes the neck back to specs where it will firmly hold the new bullet, but leaves the rest of the case below the neck in its fired dimensions and a perfect fit for the poor headspace situation, thus extending the life of the brass. It's kind of a tailor made situation for individual rifles, as often neck sized only reloads won't fit in another chamber made for that cartridge.

DG

Neck sizing works equally well even if the chamber is in spec, as long as the brass is dedicated to that one firearm. Less working of the brass extends the life. I have 600 30-30 cases for my Win 94 that I only neck size and they have all been reloaded more than 20 times-- so far.

[cwtebay]

I believe that this is a "horses for courses" argument.
I have a 35/30 that I ONLY neck size for. After roughly 15 loadings I find no issues.
My 300 PRC? Issues in less than 3 firings.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Hick]

I believe that this is a "horses for courses" argument.
I have a 35/30 that I ONLY neck size for. After roughly 15 loadings I find no issues.
My 300 PRC? Issues in less than 3 firings.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Yep. I had a friend (since died at a ripe old age) who had a bolt action 30-06 and prided himself on making the ultimate hot loads. He only loaded his cases a few times-- after that the primers fell out and the heads would not fit in the shell holder. No joke-- he gave me the brass and the cases would not fit in my shell holders either!

[Hannibal]

Yep. I had a friend (since died at a ripe old age) who had a bolt action 30-06 and prided himself on making the ultimate hot loads. He only loaded his cases a few times-- after that the primers fell out and the heads would not fit in the shell holder. No joke-- he gave me the brass and the cases would not fit in my shell holders either!

That's just someone flirting with disaster.

Case head expansion is a serious overpressure issue. I feel sorry for whoever now possesses that action because it will likely fail catastrophically in the future due to abuse.

Some people shouldn't reload but still do.

[popper]

Only comment I can add is that precision shooters don't use Lee dies. Nor cheap brass. Neck turn a few cases and see how bad neck thickness is. The first part of the vid, he stresses total alignment of bolt head, chamber and bore.

[dverna]

Taking a load from .5” to .3” takes a lot more effort than working up an effective hunting load.

1 MOA from my .223 and 1.5 MOA for the .308 is good enough for what I need to do. $5000+ rifles and .5 MOA are nice, but have no practical relevance in my world. I will not miss a deer. If I miss a ground squirrel at 250 yards, it is not the end of the world.

[rbuck351]

Well said dverna. +1

[jsizemore]

Nope

I stand corrected. Do you figure he uses an off the shelf FL sizing die?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htvk1UYOXm8

[fg-machine]

I've observed that there's a whole lot of , if your not doing it my way your wrong type of people in the re-loading world .

I've a different view , if your doing things safely and it works for you it's right for you .

Like a lot of others here I got started casting / reloading long before the internet was a thing .
I started casting with the Lyman handbook as my sole guide , I read threw it until I understood it and following it I has success right off the bat .
Re-loading was pretty much the same thing , following the manuals things worked out to my good .
Learned a lot back then at the club by asking others what they do and why , funny thing about that was most of us did things in a similar fashion because we learned the basics the same way and any improvements we learned came about in a likewise similar fashion threw simple logic .
It wasn't till the internet that I learned every I do is wrong and I should be having all sorts of issues .

I've also never been a competitive shooter , I doubt I would enjoy it .

[dverna]

I've observed that there's a whole lot of , if your not doing it my way your wrong type of people in the re-loading world .

I've a different view , if your doing things safely and it works for you it's right for you .

Like a lot of others here I got started casting / reloading long before the internet was a thing .
I started casting with the Lyman handbook as my sole guide , I read threw it until I understood it and following it I has success right off the bat .
Re-loading was pretty much the same thing , following the manuals things worked out to my good .
Learned a lot back then at the club by asking others what they do and why , funny thing about that was most of us did things in a similar fashion because we learned the basics the same way and any improvements we learned came about in a likewise similar fashion threw simple logic .
It wasn't till the internet that I learned every I do is wrong and I should be having all sorts of issues .

I've also never been a competitive shooter , I doubt I would enjoy it .

Good enough is good enough. I used to chase sub MOA loads until I realized they had no practical benefit for my needs. It was a way to learn, a way to "prove myself", and a way to earn "bragging rights". It is what drives some reloaders and there is nothing wrong with it.

I am now in "no man's land". I do not need .5 MOA deer loads but will not accept 2 MOA. I have saved a lot of time and resources by being "realistic"...as I define it. If my goal was to consistently kill deer at over 400 yards, that would cause me to rethink things.

IMO too many new shooters are drinking the Kool-Aid and chasing what gun rags are spewing. The 6.5 CreedLess is a perfect example of this foolishness. A guy at deer camp was going to buy one for deer hunting even though he already had a .270...just stupid.