My homemade Golden powder!

[dondiego]

Maybe the problem is your aluminum powder. This is what I used. Blinding flash and good report.

Attachment 322743

I ball mill the KN03 and Sulfur like it was black powder then I mix in the aluminum carefully by hand in a bowl. Never ball mill the aluminum with any oxidizer.

Tim

I suspect that your are correct in that I didn't use that high grade of aluminum in my mix. Good to know.

[Sandro_ventania]

Very interesting. Just what i need another thing to experiment with. I will wait until others have tested and figured out the ups and downs. Lots of questions with this like is 3f the same as BP, measuring it by weight or volume can it be compressed , shelf life? Is this something new or has it been around for a while. I'm still trying to improve my BP which seems pretty good so far.

They say it is hygroscopic. I have had GP stored for 1 year, it is a little darker, but it still works. I don't see the need for such a long period, just save the ingredients and make a batch to use within 1 or 2 months is great! Do you agree?

[Sandro_ventania]

Cooking GP too long makes it a dark brown color, but I don't think it works better than the golden stage. By the time it starts turning golden there is no water so with more cooking you run the risk of ignition and I don't think gain anything. Lower heat it doesn't change color, I got a lot of grey stuff that way. Higher heat may get it to the ignition point before it has all blended.

If you just use the coffee grinder shown in the video you will have nothing but 5F. I use the same grinder I use for BP and get the same sizes, with the advantage that nothing goes to dust, the smallest I get is 5F. 5F is fine (pun intended) but you may want larger sizes later.

Golden powder may be too fluffy to use cartridge guns alone but I found a solution. I've been doing "Duplex" loads in 38 special - with one (yes, 1) grain of 700X and then Gp on top of it. Slower to make but fun to shoot, sound like smokeless and look like black powder. I can even use up the bad lot I made (stopped before it went yellow) by using 2 grains of 700x instead of 1. I am still saving on my commercial powder and not wasting anything, even my mistakes.

Cook that undercooked batch again and it will reach just the right point!

[HWooldridge]

I applaud everyone who is working on a GP recipe but at this point, it appears the consistency from batch to batch and shot to shot is widely variable, with a formula based on appearance and no obvious tolerance range for cooking temperature or time; it seems to require an "artistic" approach. Commercial powder is built to a specific process recipe, which can be measured and recorded for repeatability. Would be nice to see results made from 5 or more separate batches which were repeatable with low SD numbers.

[dverna]

They say it is hygroscopic. I have had GP stored for 1 year, it is a little darker, but it still works. I don't see the need for such a long period, just save the ingredients and make a batch to use within 1 or 2 months is great! Do you agree?

What are your opinions on loaded rounds? Will they degrade over time?

Would a sealant on the bullet/neck and primer/pocket like used on some military ammunition be needed?

[Nobade]

That would be something to test. The fouling is extremely aggressive on brass but I don't know if the unburnt powder reacts with it at all.

[dtknowles]

LAGS, Your comment about Thermite got me looking deeper into it. Adding aluminum to Crimson Powder (with Iron Oxide) will not make it into thermite but I will definitely up the energy to a dangerous level (just KNO3 and AL is an explosive mixture). I made some crude Thermite today to test. Just Iron Oxide and Aluminum. It definitely makes some serious heat but I would take a lot of what I tested to burn through steel. I filled a 45 acp case with my Thermite and lit it with a match for a starter. A few sparks like a sparkler and the brass case turned incandescent orange like if you heated it with a torch only much faster the whole case was glowing. I might do it again an make a video it was pretty cool. The reaction was like expected the aluminum oxidized and the iron reduced. The residue had metal pieces that were attracted to a magnet. The only the mouth of the case melted. I think it would take a bigger charge to melt the brass or a different mixture ratio. I did not do the chemistry to find the optimum ratio.

Tim

[LAGS]

We found a Thermite Grenade on a military base where we were doing demolition on some old buildings from back in the '40s.
We went out with a Gunny to the range.
He pulled the pin and threw it on an old half track.
It burnt a hole about 2' wide and melted the metal really good.
Plus they couldn't extinguish it with water.
Thermite didn't seem explosive , just super flammable.

[dtknowles]

We found a Thermite Grenade on a military base where we were doing demolition on some old buildings from back in the '40s.
We went out with a Gunny to the range.
He pulled the pin and threw it on an old half track.
It burnt a hole about 2' wide and melted the metal really good.
Plus they couldn't extinguish it with water.
Thermite didn't seem explosive , just super flammable.

Exactly right. It does not make much gas, just a lot of heat. Putting water on it can minimize the destruction as it cools things off but it will not stop the reaction since it does not need external oxygen, you can't smother it. Pretty much unstoppable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite

Tim

[dtknowles]

We found a Thermite Grenade on a military base where we were doing demolition on some old buildings from back in the '40s.
We went out with a Gunny to the range.
He pulled the pin and threw it on an old half track.
It burnt a hole about 2' wide and melted the metal really good.
Plus they couldn't extinguish it with water.
Thermite didn't seem explosive , just super flammable.

Did the one you found look like this?

https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/land/m14-th3.htm

I wish I have read this before I made the thermite the warning about not looking at the fire. I had a little blurred vision for a few minutes. Same deal with flash powder, the aluminum flash seems to be dangerous to your vision. Heed the warning.

Tim

[LAGS]

Yep.
The Thermite one looked like that.
Plus there were two anti personnel grenades and a unopened carton of cigarettes from back in the '40s.
The two other grenades would not go off when the Gunny tried them.
My boss sold the cigarettes to a collector.
All that stuff was found in the floor of one of the barracks.
The gunny said that we were lucky we didn't run over that thermite one with the loader.
It could have burned the bucket off.

[Sandro_ventania]

I applaud everyone who is working on a GP recipe but at this point, it appears the consistency from batch to batch and shot to shot is widely variable, with a formula based on appearance and no obvious tolerance range for cooking temperature or time; it seems to require an "artistic" approach. Commercial powder is built to a specific process recipe, which can be measured and recorded for repeatability. Would be nice to see results made from 5 or more separate batches which were repeatable with low SD numbers.

The APP powder (American Pioneer Powder), is the GP, it has regularity... they certainly defined a proportion, a cooking point. We are doing our tests, let's come up with a good recipe together and document it for others to follow. For me the path is fun.

[Sandro_ventania]

What are your opinions on loaded rounds? Will they degrade over time?

Would a sealant on the bullet/neck and primer/pocket like used on some military ammunition be needed?

As I believe that the problem is just humidity, so loading and applying sealant, to prevent humidity from entering the cartridge, is the way to go. However, I repeat, there is no need for long storage... do it according to your use.

[Sandro_ventania]

LAGS, Your comment about Thermite got me looking deeper into it. Adding aluminum to Crimson Powder (with Iron Oxide) will not make it into thermite but I will definitely up the energy to a dangerous level (just KNO3 and AL is an explosive mixture). I made some crude Thermite today to test. Just Iron Oxide and Aluminum. It definitely makes some serious heat but I would take a lot of what I tested to burn through steel. I filled a 45 acp case with my Thermite and lit it with a match for a starter. A few sparks like a sparkler and the brass case turned incandescent orange like if you heated it with a torch only much faster the whole case was glowing. I might do it again an make a video it was pretty cool. The reaction was like expected the aluminum oxidized and the iron reduced. The residue had metal pieces that were attracted to a magnet. The only the mouth of the case melted. I think it would take a bigger charge to melt the brass or a different mixture ratio. I did not do the chemistry to find the optimum ratio.

Tim

Everything is a matter of proportion. Perhaps a small addition of aluminum will only increase the power of the powder, without any other effect. I saw a similar powder that used lead nitrate in a small proportion...the sky is the limit!

[LAGS]

From my limited experience with fireworks.
Adding a little aluminium powder mostly just made the flame or sparks brighter.
It didn't seem to increase the burn rate on the powder.
Like if you added it to rocket fuel powder.
It didn't make the rocket go faster or explode more.
It just made it leave a bright trail from the flame.

[Sandro_ventania]

heres a puzzle for the scientists
has anybody tried citric acid powder ?
1) its way cheaper and more easily obtained than ascorbic
2) citric acid formula C6 H8 O7 vs ascorbic acid C6 H8 O6
Citric more aggressive as an acid --one more O in the formula would a little more oxidiser be a problem
gotta be a reason this hasnt been done already - I am curious what that is??????

Joe, we are both curious about citric acid!!! I don't have it on hand, otherwise I would have already tested it! alone and then together with ascorbic

[Sandro_ventania]

From my limited experience with fireworks.
Adding a little aluminium powder mostly just made the flame or sparks brighter.
It didn't seem to increase the burn rate on the powder.
Like if you added it to rocket fuel powder.
It didn't make the rocket go faster or explode more.
It just made it leave a bright trail from the flame.

Increasing the temperature increases the expansion of gases. consequently, more momentum. It makes sense?

[SSGOldfart]

Nice job looking forward to rest of the story.

[dtknowles]

From my limited experience with fireworks.
Adding a little aluminium powder mostly just made the flame or sparks brighter.
It didn't seem to increase the burn rate on the powder.
Like if you added it to rocket fuel powder.
It didn't make the rocket go faster or explode more.
It just made it leave a bright trail from the flame.

I am a rocket scientist and have tested advanced solid rocket motors, and the added aluminum does them go faster so does adding a little nitrocellulose. The motors I have tested used ammonium perchlorate and HTPB (a kind of synthetic rubber) or PBAN (a kind of plastic), that is your cheap garden variety solid rocket motor (if you don't count the black powder ones). You want to juice that you add the aluminum and or Nitro. The juiced motors cost more and will erode the nozzle faster because of the higher temperatures.

As far as can adding aluminum to a hobby/fireworks rocket motor. It would be about getting the proportions right. The aluminum needs a lot of oxidizers just like charcoal so if you add aluminum you need to reduce the charcoal, you can't just add aluminum to improve the performance. If you reduce the charcoal to zero and replace it all with aluminum the motor will probably explode, Flash powder is much faster than black powder. Sure one could play around with ratios and probably get better velocities. I wonder about the fowling. Might not be too bad if the aluminum all burns to oxide but aluminum oxide is something that is made into sandpaper.

Something to think about. Same with adding nitro-cellulose and I don't mean duplex. Nitro-cellulose is a plastic, it might help make the GP flow better thru an extruder to make real grains like cordite.

There is not shortage of interesting paths to make gun powders.


Tim

[beemer]

This is an interesting thread and I am following. I read an article years ago explaining all the compounds that could be used for gunpowder. Some were much better than BP. The problem was expense and availability at the time. The black powder that we use was picked because it could be produced with more common materials at a price that people could afford. Things don't change much, it was business.