My homemade Golden powder!

[HWooldridge]

Well that was cryptic.

Apparently putting the smokeless on top produces better results.See for Yourself. 100+ FPS gain is significant.

I do duplex rounds because using 85% of a powder I can make with only 15% of powder I have to buy, ship and pay a hazmat fee on is appealing to me. And with it being so clean I'm doing it with everything except semiautos now.

If you go to a gun range in LA County I am very easy to spot.

He can answer for himself but I think Joe’s response was inside the quote box in blue text - at least that’s what I’m seeing on the old Ipad.

I would also want to see more tests in other calibers before deciding smokeless on top is necessarily better in every instance. I don’t care one way or the other but further testing would tend to yield more accurate conclusions.

The next question is why one is better than the other? I am speculating here but suspect the smokeless just under the projectile gives it one final bump before leaving the barrel. If we could plot a pressure graph, the ignition would show two peaks, with the second lower than the first but still enough for an extra oomph. The mixed powders obviously can’t achieve that, and neither can smokeless under the main charge, because it’s ignited first.

[Sandro_ventania]

Some artillery ammunition uses black powder as a starter for the main charge. The biggest buyers of black powder are the armed forces. Smokeless nitrocellulose gunpowder needs to be under pressure to work properly. burn it in the open air and see how slow it is. Only under pressure does it burn well and quickly. In my analysis, I believe that burning the black powder first, in addition to starting the nitrocellulose powder well, starts it at high pressure. So the use of it is better.

[2TM101]

What is the advantage of this powder over the tried and true KNO3 and table sugar? Cost is about $3 a pound.

I have been re-reading this entire thread now that I have some experience with this stuff and with that knowledge I'm now looking at this and wondering how it works. Sounds more like model rocket fuel but I have been reading some chemical compositions on here that would have sounded bizarre to me a couple of months ago.

I did make up some KN03 / Starch powder, but a day later it was still a jelly, so I put it outside in the sun and open air to dry.

Then it rained for 6 hours - so I won't be able to test that for awhile.

Potassium Nitrate and sugar sounds like it would leave behind some really bad residue. Have you actually tried this? How does it work?

[Sandro_ventania]

Today I made a batch with black iron oxide. I tested the same pattern, .36 underhammer pistol, patch and ball with just 6 grains. It looked like this...with an average GP of 413fps. GP+copper oxide 501fps. GP+ iron oxide (black) 564fps. Iron oxide is still gaining speed, but the powder made with it is very hygroscopic. Is yours like this? In a few hours it already changes its appearance by agglomerating, but as I said, I used black iron oxide which is Fe3o4, red iron oxide is Fe2o3 and the result may be different... with black it is impossible to use in humid weather . Powder with copper oxide burns very cleanly, cleaner than GP and perhaps by increasing the amount of it it will be equal to or better than iron oxide. It has a beautiful beige color resembling milk chocolate and is not hygroscopic. I liked using it. If you can't find copper oxide ready-made, it is easily made at home, just mix caustic soda (sodium hydroxide) with copper sulfate, there should be a video on YouTube showing it.

[indian joe]

He can answer for himself but I think Joe’s response was inside the quote box in blue text - at least that’s what I’m seeing on the old Ipad.

I would also want to see more tests in other calibers before deciding smokeless on top is necessarily better in every instance. I don’t care one way or the other but further testing would tend to yield more accurate conclusions.

The next question is why one is better than the other? I am speculating here but suspect the smokeless just under the projectile gives it one final bump before leaving the barrel. If we could plot a pressure graph, the ignition would show two peaks, with the second lower than the first but still enough for an extra oomph. The mixed powders obviously can’t achieve that, and neither can smokeless under the main charge, because it’s ignited first.

correct my answer was the blue
just watched the video
hes using wrong powder and/or reducing loads to prove his point
4227 is equal density to blackpowder his 45 + 9.3 load using the much more bulky A5744 has given away 17 grains (or more) of blackpowder !
even biullseye (which I would not use either) is less dense grains vs volume
so had he used that 4227 for his smokeless he would have had (at 7%) 7 grains smokeless + 64 grains of swiss and I bet he would have got his 100fps gain (thats what I have seen here with the chrono @10%smokless - right around 100fps gain - without doing the duplex load upside down - would you get 200fps with the 4227 on top ? dunno - not goin there)

[2TM101]

Note: I milled, pucked, and screened (corned) this powder rather than cooking on the stove. Would be interesting to see if it works as well by cooking.

I ball mill my stuff first just to make sure it is mixed evenly. Only needs about a half hour in that case.

With Crimson powder I got a LOT of 4F, maybe 50% of it, though no dust, and no fines. Probably because there is so little Charcoal. I have been using it like that and not trying to puck it into larger granules. Even with 5% Charcoal instead of 1.8% Grey will probably be the same.

I did try pucking the previously mentioned "White Powder". Don't even bother trying to make that stuff. It will NOT puck, even with 10,000 PSI it just crumbles back to dust right out of the die. And the stuff I made on the stove last week is STILL drying. I should have just used the starch to make Dextrin.

I'm still curious as to where the "Grey" powder formula came from, I don't have that in any reference. Out of all of these alternate non-black powders, it does seem to be the best formula.

[HamGunner]

I'm still curious as to where the "Grey" powder formula came from, I don't have that in any reference. Out of all of these alternate non-black powders, it does seem to be the best formula.

I think I altered the normal formula of what I called (Gray Powder) to where it performed better for me. The normal formula that I found was just to simply replace the Red Iron Oxide in the Crimson powder formula with Manganese Dioxide. My variation with increased amounts of both the Manganese Dioxide as well as the charcoal and corresponding decreases of the first two ingredients seemed to perform much better with increased velocity as well as less velocity spread. Slight tweaking of this further might prove even better, although I do think that any further increase of the Manganese Dioxide should be approached with caution. Perhaps even a slight decrease in the amount along with an increase of the charcoal could prove to give an improvement.

Note: I did mill and then corn this instead of cooking on the stove. The pucks were quite Gray, thus my name.

I searched a bit and did find this about the Manganese Dioxide. Both it and the Iron Oxide are used for similar formulas in various types of uses in fireworks.

"Description: Manganese Dioxide can be used as a catalyst in composite and whistling rocket propellant formulations. A thermite-like mixture can also be made with it. The manganese dioxide thermite burns more slowly than the iron oxide based mixture with a bright white glow."

"Hazards: Mangese Dioxide is poisonous and leaves brown stains on glassware etc. The stains can be removed with dilute hydrochloric acid (of course, only when the stained object is not attacked by the acid)."

For reference to my test results, go back a couple pages to posts #247 & #272.

[2TM101]

I think I altered the normal formula of what I called (Gray Powder) to where it performed better for me. The normal formula that I found was just to simply replace the Red Iron Oxide in the Crimson powder formula with Manganese Dioxide. My variation with increased amounts of both the Manganese Dioxide as well as the charcoal and corresponding decreases of the first two ingredients seemed to perform much better with increased velocity as well as less velocity spread. Slight tweaking of this further might prove even better, although I do think that any further increase of the Manganese Dioxide should be approached with caution. Perhaps even a slight decrease in the amount along with an increase of the charcoal could prove to give an improvement.

60 KNO3
30 Ascorbic
4 Manganese
6 Charcoal

I'll try this next batch as I finally did receive the Manganese Dioxide.

And for anyone considering White Powder - basically don't. 10 hours in a food dehydrator at max setting and this stuff STILL was not completely dry. But it was at least dry enough to grind and now I have it on a cookie sheet finishing its drying in the sun outside. But I'm done experimenting I think, Crimson powder works well for me, and this "Grey" variant seems to be the formula for all my non-black powder making in the future.

EDIT: Manganese Dioxide in Mineral form is called "Pyrolusite". So now we have a better sounding and more official name for "Grey Powder"

[HamGunner]

60 KNO3
30 Ascorbic
4 Manganese
6 Charcoal. I'll try this next batch as I finally did receive the Manganese Dioxide.
But I'm done experimenting I think, Crimson powder works well for me, and this "Grey" variant seems to be the formula for all my non-black powder making in the future.

I bet that will be a decent batch. Do let us know how it turns out.

I still have plenty of the ingredients to play with, but like you, I am about done experimenting with alternative powders.

My TP BP is looking very good to me and it is not such a nasty chore to make the charcoal out of TP.

[Sandro_ventania]

60 KNO3
30 Ascorbic
4 Manganese
6 Charcoal

I'll try this next batch as I finally did receive the Manganese Dioxide.

And for anyone considering White Powder - basically don't. 10 hours in a food dehydrator at max setting and this stuff STILL was not completely dry. But it was at least dry enough to grind and now I have it on a cookie sheet finishing its drying in the sun outside. But I'm done experimenting I think, Crimson powder works well for me, and this "Grey" variant seems to be the formula for all my non-black powder making in the future.

It would be great if a comparative test was carried out between manganese dioxide and iron oxide. Only then will we know which works best. unfortunately I didn't get pure manganese dioxide. And definitely friends, no matter how best you have a recipe, never, ever stop trying!!! Only then can there be evolution!!

[2TM101]

Starch "white" powder -for people with lots of time but no money.

All told less than $4 a pound for the two ingredients. Just as powerful as any of the other substitutes but takes longer to make than anything else, including the entire ball mill & puck BP method.

Because it takes FOREVER to dry. even spread out over an entire cookie sheet and then moved to a ventilated screen once it cools. It forms a crust and then the inside holds all of the moisture. Even if you break it up into "cookies" and put it into a food dehydrator on max setting it takes days. And you HAVE to make sure its dry because if not it will clump up and give you false "dryballs". Well, I did try to use it like that.

In 50shots my caplock pistol behaved like i had put no powder into it at all no less than three times. I could tell from where the ramrod stopped that the powder was in there, especially with this bulky stuff. Multiple caps got no ignition. so when I took off the nipple and checked there was a big air gap in there. Even though the starch powder felt dry it was clumping and jamming before it got all the way in.

I have since truly fully dried this stuff and re-screened it. and it now works but this is WAY too much work for an inferior product. It is, however, very inexpensive.

[MUSTANG]

What velocity have you achieved with "White Powder" compared to velocities for Black Powder, and Golden Powder? I am interested to see actual velocities, impressions help but do not provide hard comparisons.

My concern is that in my life I have seen ammunition and reloading components go from fairly inexpensive and available at about any country store/hardware store/gas station etc... To being a "Specialty Item that has become expensive and one has to Shop around and "Buy When It's There". Ability to "Roll Your Own" and tailor to requirements is one reason I believe this and other threads on making powders is popular.

[Sandro_ventania]

Starch "white" powder -for people with lots of time but no money.

All told less than $4 a pound for the two ingredients. Just as powerful as any of the other substitutes but takes longer to make than anything else, including the entire ball mill & puck BP method.

Because it takes FOREVER to dry. even spread out over an entire cookie sheet and then moved to a ventilated screen once it cools. It forms a crust and then the inside holds all of the moisture. Even if you break it up into "cookies" and put it into a food dehydrator on max setting it takes days. And you HAVE to make sure its dry because if not it will clump up and give you false "dryballs". Well, I did try to use it like that.

In 50shots my caplock pistol behaved like i had put no powder into it at all no less than three times. I could tell from where the ramrod stopped that the powder was in there, especially with this bulky stuff. Multiple caps got no ignition. so when I took off the nipple and checked there was a big air gap in there. Even though the starch powder felt dry it was clumping and jamming before it got all the way in.

I have since truly fully dried this stuff and re-screened it. and it now works but this is WAY too much work for an inferior product. It is, however, very inexpensive.

2TM101, believe what I'm going to tell you. It's just a matter of technique! I prepare the porridge and throw it on plastic wrap, leaving it spread out like a sheet of paper. I take it out in the sun and that same afternoon it's so dry that it comes off the plastic on its own and I can break it with my hands like it was a Ruffles potato. Yes... the powder is like other substitutes, perhaps by adding iron oxide or manganese dioxide it would be even better, but I've never tried it. The important thing is to have powder options and continue research, to find others and perhaps even better ones!

[2TM101]

What velocity have you achieved with "White Powder" compared to velocities for Black Powder, and Golden Powder? I am interested to see actual velocities, impressions help but do not provide hard comparisons.

My concern is that in my life I have seen ammunition and reloading components go from fairly inexpensive and available at about any country store/hardware store/gas station etc... To being a "Specialty Item that has become expensive and one has to Shop around and "Buy When It's There". Ability to "Roll Your Own" and tailor to requirements is one reason I believe this and other threads on making powders is popular.

I got back into reloading when California started background checks for ammunition. I'm wearing a Glock 17 as I type this so the background check, or the $1 fee, was never an issue. Driving 30 miles each way to pay someone $25 to hand me a box was too much. I got into Black Powder and Airguns because California doesn't care about them, so no FFL fee at all.

Buying Black Powder involves a Hazmat fee. Buying Fertilizer, barbecue supplies and rust does not. I make my own bullets, powder & caps. I've gotten to the point with my own percussion caps that I would not buy new ones even if they were available. And if I make them out of sheet copper instead of beer cans they even look about the same. Bu then they cost $0.03 each to make as opposed to about $0.014

I have made "White Powder" (Starch) Golden Powder (vitamin C) Crimson Powder (golden powder + 4% of other stuff) and Grey Powder (golden powder + 10% of different other stuff) and found the last one to be the most effective. As that "Other Stuff" is Manganese Dioxide, which in its mineral form is called "Pyrolucite" I am calling the resulting powder Pyrolucite. Sounds like the commercially available BP substitute - and is better in some ways.

I do have a chronograph, so in the future I am going use my Rossi92 to test Win244 (Starting loads with Coffee ground filler) Vs BP Vs my Grey/Pyrolucite powder. I'll use a cartridge to test as I can carefully measure the powder ahead of time before I get to the range. I may have some fine tuning to do with the 6% charcoal 4% Manganese Dioxide part.

Ultimate goal is to come up with the best possible homemade substitute for both black powder AND trailboss.

[2TM101]

2TM101, believe what I'm going to tell you. It's just a matter of technique! I prepare the porridge and throw it on plastic wrap, leaving it spread out like a sheet of paper. I take it out in the sun and that same afternoon it's so dry that it comes off the plastic on its own and I can break it with my hands like it was a Ruffles potato.

You must be using substantially better starch, which is very likely. I was using the cheapest starch I could find ($1.99 a pound on Amazon) as the objective was just being cheap as possible. I can get a pound of starch for $2 I can get a pound of Potassium Nitrate for $2.54. A pound of gunpowder for less than $2.50 is appealing. And It did work very well. If I make this again I have to leave it on the stove a lot longer and then dry it in the food dehydrator I got. And maybe not leave it out in the rain when drying, that probably didn't help.

[Sandro_ventania]

You must be using substantially better starch, which is very likely. I was using the cheapest starch I could find ($1.99 a pound on Amazon) as the objective was just being cheap as possible. I can get a pound of starch for $2 I can get a pound of Potassium Nitrate for $2.54. A pound of gunpowder for less than $2.50 is appealing. And It did work very well. If I make this again I have to leave it on the stove a lot longer and then dry it in the food dehydrator I got. And maybe not leave it out in the rain when drying, that probably didn't help.

starch is starch. However, I clarify that I used cassava starch, also called cassava starch... (ops, the translator doesn't know the second name and repeated it). If you want a BP replacement that is more efficient than BP, you will have to use a better oxidizer. I could name a few, but I was told not to because of the idiots who might read this. Because the powder really becomes more powerful.

[dtknowles]

starch is starch. However, I clarify that I used cassava starch, also called cassava starch... (ops, the translator doesn't know the second name and repeated it). If you want a BP replacement that is more efficient than BP, you will have to use a better oxidizer. I could name a few, but I was told not to because of the idiots who might read this. Because the powder really becomes more powerful.

It could be, but I would not really know, but saying starch is starch might be like saying charcoal is charcoal.

[barrabruce]

Got to test some golden powder loads in the 30-30. 60/40 mix
I loaded these about a month ago.
Been raining and flooding and tropical humid.
29 grains with 150 pp bullet.Just to bullet base. Lots of smoke first 4 shots out of clean barrel in 2" at 50 yards.
12" low
30 grains less smoke bit more bang. Some 12" low some around point of aim.
31 grains still erratic spread but louder and less smoke.
32 only two shots. Least of all smoke. 2" low from point of aim and getting to near cracking pace.
I think I will have to clean often to shoot this beast of a gun.
My original loads seemed to work the best so far.
May try lube on paper patches again.
After 20 shots the bore was gritty first 1/3 rd of barrel.
Could have been patch fouling or patch failure.
I patched to groove +1 thou with a light taper crimp to be snug in the case. I usually patch to fill the throat or fired brass.
Since this batch of GP has time to mature I will load some more and see if there is any difference.

It was raining when I was shooting but there seems to be less smoke the more I compress this batch and more swing in velocity.
Patch failure may have caused this thou, not sure.
Any way.
Is what it is.

[2TM101]

starch is starch. However, I clarify that I used cassava starch, also called cassava starch... (ops, the translator doesn't know the second name and repeated it). If you want a BP replacement that is more efficient than BP, you will have to use a better oxidizer. I could name a few, but I was told not to because of the idiots who might read this. Because the powder really becomes more powerful.

Lots of better Oxidizers But look at the page. Potassium Nitrate is $3 a pound, about 1/4 of anything else. I'm cheap.

[Sandro_ventania]

It could be, but I would not really know, but saying starch is starch might be like saying charcoal is charcoal.

Você disse bem! “Dizer que amido é amido é o mesmo que dizer que carvão é carvão”. Por isso devemos experimentar as opções!