DIY Smokeless Powder - No. 7 Smokeless Powder Manufacturing

[ofitg]

I would call attention to Section 3.7 of the manual – MATCH GUN – which uses match heads as propellant. People around the world have been using match heads as expedient “gunpowder” for decades, possibly for more than a century. Match heads contain Potassium Chlorate, typically in the neighborhood of 40-50%, depending upon which country you buy them in.

The warning from Albert & Oelberg (which you highlighted in red) is contradicted by the U.S. Army and thousands of people who have used match heads and other Potassium Chlorate mixtures.

If we had listened to all of the “nay-sayers”, we never would have started making our own black powder, much less our own primers.

[rockrat]

I would say Mustang is correct, stay away from chlorates for propellants. Very touchy and will detonate (as related by an upper classman in H.S.-he was lucky-you might not be)

[ofitg]

I have been "lucky" with KClO3 for 30 years (so far). Here is a test I posted (post #88) eight years ago -

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...nd-ideas/page5

I look forward to seeing what kind of velocities Mustang gets with the Albert-Oelberg recipe.

[MUSTANG]

I have been "lucky" with KClO3 for 30 years (so far). Here is a test I posted (post #88) eight years ago -

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...nd-ideas/page5

I look forward to seeing what kind of velocities Mustang gets with the Albert-Oelberg recipe.

Thanks for the Link to your past efforts. I was unaware of this link.

Aside from the expressed concern/s over Chlorates and Perchlorates; the research by ofitg yielded velocities similar (and somewhat faster) than Black Powder.

What drove my interest in the experimenting with the No.7 formulation was that the ballistic test results published in the 1944 paper seemed to imply velocities (although not tested) similar to a Commercial Smokeless Powder (IMR-4320) based in same bullet weights and their impacts below point of aim. The drop comparison tables with other formulas indicate much greater velocity with No.7 compared to most other test powders listed in the 1944 paper.

[ofitg]

Thanks for the Link to your past efforts. I was unaware of this link.

Aside from the expressed concern/s over Chlorates and Perchlorates; the research by ofitg yielded velocities similar (and somewhat faster) than Black Powder.

What drove my interest in the experimenting with the No.7 formulation was that the ballistic test results published in the 1944 paper seemed to imply velocities (although not tested) similar to a Commercial Smokeless Powder (IMR-4320) based in same bullet weights and their impacts below point of aim. The drop comparison tables with other formulas indicate much greater velocity with No.7 compared to most other test powders listed in the 1944 paper.

I hope your velocities are superior to what I achieved. That could be a real boon to some people. If the Albert-Oelberg mixture generated a time/pressure curve capable of cycling a gas-operated semiauto, that would really be the icing on the cake!
The only problem I see (for my own personal use) arises from a self-imposed constraint that the "ideal" expedients must be put together from locally-available materials..... and I don't know where I can get nitric acid around here to synthesize Lead Nitrate.....

[Barry54]

Fascinating to read about this.

I have an old muzzleloader with a rough bore. I always wanted to try some mild smokeless loads in it. Something along the lines of 45 Colt or some other black powder cartridge. My plan was to scotch the rifle in old tires and pull the trigger with a string while hiding behind cover.

Are you planning to fire these from a distance with a string, or are you confident enough to hold it and look down the sights for the first shot?

Lastly since you mentioned duplex charges, do you think this 1940’s recipe number 7 powder might benefit from a little pistol powder to get it lit?

[MUSTANG]

As previously stated, this first batch of No.7 powder I made, I did not cook it (boil off the water) after mixing – rather I let it sit for 5 days until it dried from air evaporation, then I ground it. My curiosity, temperatures still in the single digit and (-) minus degrees, and not being able to test fire until possibly mid to late next week resulted in another “Test” to see where I am with this effort.

I did a burn test of the remnants of the No. 7 smokeless powder I made, and also as a control I burned some scrap Ball Powder, this was small grains (scrap) that were swept up from the Reloading bench after reloading a variety of Rifle calibers. Mostly BLC-2, W748, W760, and WC-872 powders all stored in the same medium sized Pill Bottle.

Burn Test Video’s:

The 1st Burn Test is small amount of No.7 mixture on a fireplace ash scoop.
https://rumble.com/v47uygc-diy-smoke...ix-test-1.html

The 2nd Burn Test is a small amount of mixed Ball Powder on a fireplace ash scoop.
https://rumble.com/v47v186-diy-smoke...rn-test-1.html


Apologies for the camera drifting on and off the Test burn area; but trying to hold the phone camera and the butane lighter on the Powders at the same time was cumbersome. I was expecting a far more energetic burn of both powders; but not so. It is quite evident that the Ball powder burn is more energetic; making me wonder if the No.7 was sufficiently “Dry”.

I may make another small Test batch of No.7 this weekend using the 1944 Manual instructions as written to cook it. The temperatures are supposed to finally get up to the high 20’s and even the 30’s next Monday/Tuesday for highs; allowing me to cook it outside. I will attempt the same Burn Test on the next batch if I get it made. My thoughts are that if there is a significant difference in burn tests; I may pull the Bullets on the 5 Test Rounds I loaded and reload them with another Batch of No. 7 for testing instead if the new Burn Test should look better.

[dverna]

I would want an old beat up Mosin and a long string to do the testing.

[Barry54]

I looked up the temperature and relative humidity in Kalispell and calculated the dew point as -1.7° F. I’d call that dry!!!

The number 7 powder in your video seemed harder ignite. I wonder if it was larger granules like extruded powder vs dust like powdered sugar, if it would get going better?

Could you pull a couple of the ones you already loaded and let it dry more?

What about a dehydrator for making jerky or something with lower heat for “cooking” the powder?

Personally, I couldn’t resist touching one off out the back door, after going as far as you have. Kinda stopped right before the climax.

[perotter]

From the Paper:

No. 7 is a smokeless powder, flashless under working load, hygroscopic; and retains all of the cool burning, low pressure merits of all Ammonium Nitrate powders, as well as the one hygroscopic disadvantage.

Hygroscopic it is. I tested this and various other formulas 12-13 years ago. Here in Minnesota it was fine during the winter for me, but come June in hours would have a 'puddle of water' instead of a small pile of powder.

It might be just the thing in dryer climate than the Midwest.

You might want do test of normal primers vs mag primers. The DIY primer mix that worked the best for me were the ones that had around 7% or more aluminum powder in them, FWIW.

I do think that the problem of it being AN being extremely hygroscopic could be overcome. The Veit Cong did use it to reload rifle ammo in the '60s and it's very humid there. But the source was from US dud munitions which was a mix that had been melted and poured into the casing. Maybe melting with NC would work, ball park starting point of 70% AN-10% powdered KNO3-20% NC. FWIW, I never had much luck with a room temp solvent method to mix NC or cellulose acetate with the AN-KNO3 and it staying dry.

Good luck. And looking forward to any reports.

[perotter]

I have been "lucky" with KClO3 for 30 years (so far). Here is a test I posted (post #88) eight years ago -

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...nd-ideas/page5

I look forward to seeing what kind of velocities Mustang gets with the Albert-Oelberg recipe.

Thanks for linking that. I'd totally forgotten that you'd posted that. I should dig out my old notebook on such powders and add that info to it. I did just copy it to my USB stick.

[perotter]

I would want an old beat up Mosin and a long string to do the testing.

While not a bad idea and I'd never discourage a person from doing it this way, but AN powders are right on the bottom end of burning fast enough to work in this application and there pressure curve is forgiving.

[ACC]

Please forgive my ignorance

As a precursor, I will never remanufacture primers for two reasons. I am uncomfortable dealing with explosive mixtures and I am blessed to be able to afford commercial primers.

So, my concern is, how safe is this formulation wrt to making it in large quantities? Can it be produced indoors?

I am looking forward to your range report!

Just like making Black Powder. Just as explosive and just as corrosive. I would not be comfortable doing anything like this. There is also the cost. Not any cheaper to make than to buy and let someone else take the risk and liability.

ACC

[elmacgyver0]

Just like making Black Powder. Just as explosive and just as corrosive. I would not be comfortable doing anything like this. There is also the cost. Not any cheaper to make than to buy and let someone else take the risk and liability.

ACC

That is entirely upon the formulation, as far as cost, less than $5.00 a thousand (I was told $3.00) but added a little due to inflation and exaggeration.
Of course, if you are adding in your time and you are a big shot CEO it would not make much sense.
I would say it is a lot safer than walking down a dark alley, riding a motorcycle or living in a large city.

[MUSTANG]

I manufactured a second batch of No.7 Powder using the same weight/ratios as before. This time I processed it as described in the 1944 Manual. I mixed it with equal volumes of distilled water as described in the manual mixing process. Stirring continually, As the mixture started to have dried spots in the cooking mixture; I got a couple of places that “Sparked” and burned as the text indicated might happen. A single quick spritz from a spray bottle put out the “Hot Spots”, the mixture cooking was continued on flame as low as the Propane Cook Range would allow, until the entire mixture was dry and hard.

I scraped the mixture out of the frying pan I was using. Large chunks of material, with some smaller pieces. I used a Coffee grinder this time to process the Mixture. I screened it with a finer mesh than in the 1st Experimental Batch. Anything from the coffee Grinder not passing through a 20 Mesh filter was processed again in the Coffee Grinder. The Powder after screening was stored in a Stainless Steel bowl with a Clear Plastic film used to keep any collection from moisture in the air being an issue.

I did a “Burn Test” on this Experiment #2 batch, similar to what I did for the #1 Batch and the Control Ball Powder. Clip follows:

https://rumble.com/v48ve00-diy-smoke...ix-test-2.html

The burn Test raises questions on powder viability; but we will see if the Range Testing brings any issues to the fore front.

[MUSTANG]

I loaded 5 additional rounds using all the same information listed in post #4 above – with the exception that the 5 rounds continued 33 Grains of the Powder Mixture having been cooked and ground to a 20 Mesh.

[MUSTANG]

I dd a Test firing of Experimental Mixture #1 and Experimental Mixture #2 today. Weather was a nice 34 degrees and mostly sunny.

Experimental Powder Test #1 (Air dried 5 days):
Range was 100 Yards, sighting was cross hairs on the red dot. Red dot is 1” across. Group size is about 1 & 5/8 inches. Report noise level of each shot was about same as what I get with my 200 Gr RCBS Sil over 30 Grains of BLC-2 with Dacron filler.



Velocities by Shot in feet per second:
1789
1856
1859
1832
1974

Average velocity: 1862 Feet Per Second.

[MUSTANG]

Experimental Powder Test #2 (Cooked on gas Range – 20 Mesh Powder size):
Range was 100 Yards, sighting was 2 Mil “Down Hold” using the MilDot reticle on the Red Dot. Red dot is 1” across. Group size is about 5 & ¼ inches by 2 Inches. Only 4 rounds as one round Failed To Fire. Report noise level of each shot was about same as what I get with my Hawken Rifle using Pyrodex. Delay ignition about the same as I get in the Hawken. Not as energetic as I get with RCBS Sil over 30 Grains of BLC-2 with Dacron filler; or in Test #1.

[MUSTANG]

My thoughts a week ago were that the Test #1 batch would be potentially problematic; and the Test #2 batch would be more viable based on my readings in the 1944 manual. This has proven NOT TO BE THE CASE if both were to be repeated.

My current thoughts are to focus more Experimentation on the Air Dried Test #1 for making additional No.7 Smokeless Powder. The 20 Mesh screened Test #2 mixture is not adequately igniting, perhaps because it is too fine. This same issue was observed by a variety of references associated with making primers and the best size of aluminum powder to use in primer making.

I do find it interesting that the Powder is indicating that it could be a replacement for my BLC-2 Cast Boolit loads using the RCBS 200 Sil boolit and 30 Grains of BLC-2 in the .308 Winchester. I am thinking I may try the Test #1 Powder using the RCBS 200 Sil boolit next. My wife and I are going to buy a Dehydrator for use with the Garden next year. I may pick it up via Amazon and use it to make Test #1 style No.7 Smokeless Powder for the next test.

[HWooldridge]

Nothing hateful about test #1 - that’s pretty respectable in my humble opinion. Please keep us posted.