DIY Smokeless Powder - No. 7 Smokeless Powder Manufacturing

[MUSTANG]

I have my powder No.7 testing on hold for a couple of weeks as my wife's and my attention is diverted elsewhere for a bit. But, here are some thoughts.

1. Focus is on duplicating results of 1944 paper - and doing so repeatedly before "Modifying" formulas.

2. "Cool Burning" was one of the objectives and notations found in the writings of the 1944 paper. Adding aluminum powder to the mix is going to dramatically raise the Temps. Use of Aluminum in Primers is common, it allows increased temperatures - Plus it provides hot particles ejected from the primer into the powder, providing increased ignition burn rates which s why it is found in "Magnum Primers" used in Commercial Primers for slower burning smokeless powders. Not sure I want all of those "Hot Particles" in my powder mix which ejected into the throat and barrel of the rifle which may cause erosion or burn the steel.

3. Many (myself included) have had success with Duplex loads for igniting slow powders. I still have a thread somewhere on this site where I duplex loaded W860/870/872 powders intended for 50BMG in .223's. I had success with velocities 200 to 400 FPS slower than optimum powders, but good accuracy and performance albeit at slower speeds. For me; using a Duplex load, or mixing nitrocellulose derived from single/double based smokeless powders fails to meet the objective. My concerns of long term dramatically escalating powder prices and "None on the Shelf" started me down this path. A home made product that works effectively; not a modified commercial product was the goal. For a while; I will be staying with the No.7 type powder formulations for now.

4. Although repetitive experimentation may prove differently; the mesh appears initially to be a critical element. I screened the "Failed Powder" Test #2 using a 20 Mesh screen which my test indicated had indications of inconstant ignition with one round fail to fire and 4 rounds tested with heavy vertical stringing on the Target. . Perotters use of a 32 mesh screen results in even finer powder and my thoughts are that would result in even more difficulties.

I appreciate all the thoughts, recommendations, and observation of similar efforts by others. I have prepped 5 rounds of the wet down/dried/and ground to pass large screen powder from as described in Post #57. Will shoot those five test rounds next time at the range.

[2TM101]

From looking at all this it seems to be an equivalent to Varget, and made in a manner similar to "Golden Powder".

Chemically it seems to be a four component improved version of Ammon Pulver the same way Crimson powder is a four component improvement on Golden, which like Ammon Pulver is only a two component mix.

Ammon Pulver destroys cartridge cases fairly quickly though and is VERY difficult to clean up after. Do the old documents mention what the long term effects of using this are?

[perotter]

I have my powder No.7 testing on hold for a couple of weeks as my wife's and my attention is diverted elsewhere for a bit. But, here are some thoughts.

1. Focus is on duplicating results of 1944 paper - and doing so repeatedly before "Modifying" formulas.

2. "Cool Burning" was one of the objectives and notations found in the writings of the 1944 paper. Adding aluminum powder to the mix is going to dramatically raise the Temps. Use of Aluminum in Primers is common, it allows increased temperatures - Plus it provides hot particles ejected from the primer into the powder, providing increased ignition burn rates which s why it is found in "Magnum Primers" used in Commercial Primers for slower burning smokeless powders. Not sure I want all of those "Hot Particles" in my powder mix which ejected into the throat and barrel of the rifle which may cause erosion or burn the steel.

3. Many (myself included) have had success with Duplex loads for igniting slow powders. I still have a thread somewhere on this site where I duplex loaded W860/870/872 powders intended for 50BMG in .223's. I had success with velocities 200 to 400 FPS slower than optimum powders, but good accuracy and performance albeit at slower speeds. For me; using a Duplex load, or mixing nitrocellulose derived from single/double based smokeless powders fails to meet the objective. My concerns of long term dramatically escalating powder prices and "None on the Shelf" started me down this path. A home made product that works effectively; not a modified commercial product was the goal. For a while; I will be staying with the No.7 type powder formulations for now.

4. Although repetitive experimentation may prove differently; the mesh appears initially to be a critical element. I screened the "Failed Powder" Test #2 using a 20 Mesh screen which my test indicated had indications of inconstant ignition with one round fail to fire and 4 rounds tested with heavy vertical stringing on the Target. . Perotters use of a 32 mesh screen results in even finer powder and my thoughts are that would result in even more difficulties.

I appreciate all the thoughts, recommendations, and observation of similar efforts by others. I have prepped 5 rounds of the wet down/dried/and ground to pass large screen powder from as described in Post #57. Will shoot those five test rounds next time at the range.

I must have word my previous post poorly, as what I did created a courser grained powder. So I'll try and do a better job now.

1. First I sifted the product with a 16 mesh screen.
2. I collected what passed thru the 16 mesh screen.
3. What was collected in step 2 was sifted with a 32 mesh screen.
4. What didn't pass thru the screen in step 3 was kept for loading into the case. What did pass thru the 32 mesh screen was recycled.

Indeed one should follow the methods in something like this that suit their goals and ones nature. So please never think that I'm saying you are doing it incorrectly, short of a safety issue. My self when I was experimenting with this type of powder I'd have as many as 4 totally different formulations at the same time.

[perotter]

From looking at all this it seems to be an equivalent to Varget, and made in a manner similar to "Golden Powder".

Chemically it seems to be a four component improved version of Ammon Pulver the same way Crimson powder is a four component improvement on Golden, which like Ammon Pulver is only a two component mix.

Ammon Pulver destroys cartridge cases fairly quickly though and is VERY difficult to clean up after. Do the old documents mention what the long term effects of using this are?

It would be more properly called an ammid pulver, because of the potassium nitrate in it.

Yup. Hard on brass. Plus the danger that if in a brass case for a long period under poor contiditions a primary explosive can form. But then the same danger can be said about black powder.

[2TM101]

It would be more properly called an ammid pulver, because of the potassium nitrate in it. Yup. Hard on brass. Plus the danger that if in a brass case for a long period under poor conditions a primary explosive can form. But then the same danger can be said about black powder.

As far as the brass / gun is concerned it would guess Ammid pulver isn't significantly better on the brass & gun than Ammon pulver. This is something I would do only in 9mm since I have an unlimited supply of brass and I would not have to worry about cleaning them later. Also the Glock 17 I would fire them in doesn't belong to me....

[firefly1957]

Any thoughts about forming Pellets for straight walled cartridges . A solid pellet with a hole in the center could be coated with Nitrocellulose or other thing to make it safe for the brass casing. a boost charge of powder could even be placed inside that hole if needed.

[HWooldridge]

Duco cement has nitrocellulose as a base constituent. Wonder if you could dilute it further with acetone and use it as a dip coat?

[perotter]

Duco cement has nitrocellulose as a base constituent. Wonder if you could dilute it further with acetone and use it as a dip coat?

In my experiments I found that NC was that best additive when I wanted a faster burning rate powder for 357 mag. Truth be told, really the only way I got any reasonable result in pistol caliber.

There of many industrial sources of NC. Many pigmented black inks, guitar lacquer(any true lacquer and not so called), as of a few years ago the lower cost ping pong balls, airplane dope, etc - to name a few. But some of these might have urea in them, which would cause an increase in burn rate over a period of time depending. Not real hard to make NC either.

[indian joe]

It would be more properly called an ammid pulver, because of the potassium nitrate in it.

Yup. Hard on brass.

Plus the danger that if in a brass case for a long period under poor contiditions a primary explosive can form. But then the same danger can be said about black powder.

would you mind elaborating on this please?

[lavenatti]

The reaction between AN and copper brass can lead to the formation of a complex salt known as Tetraamminecopper(II) Nitrate. This is pretty sensitive and not something you'd want in your ammo. I'm not aware of anything like this occurring with potassium nitrate.

[firefly1957]

There have been posts about thinning Duco cement however I can not remember if it was here or on facebook that I saw it? I have even looked in the stores for it without much luck lately I had some several years ago it was left in a cabinet when I bought this house . It dried up and was tossed out my mistake I now know!

Thinking about it further I am thinking Duco cement was mentioned in a fireworks group.

[redhawk0]

Following this one...fascinating

[MUSTANG]

The mention of Tetraamminecopper(II) Nitrate sparked my interest. There are Citations on numerous Internet search results to it being shock and sensitive. Thought that it might be interesting to pursue some day as a priming compound; but no citations found of it's velocity rate so no way of seeing if it is simply a "Phsssst" or a "Bangggg" The following shows how it can be made; but that is a "Round Tu-It" that is way down the list of priorities fort my time currently.

My loading and use of No.7 Smokeless Powder will be accomplished with "Storage" being only a couple of weeks as different batches are made for shooting if it works out reasonable. Long term Storage of Reloaded Boolits is currently commercial powder for me; not Home Made Powders that I will continue to be making and testing. Hope to get out next week and test the Reconstituted N0.7 powder I loaded in test rounds.

[2TM101]

There have been posts about thinning Duco cement however I can not remember if it was here or on facebook that I saw it? I have even looked in the stores for it without much luck lately I had some several years ago it was left in a cabinet when I bought this house . It dried up and was tossed out my mistake I now know!

Thinking about it further I am thinking Duco cement was mentioned in a fireworks group.

Duco Cement is available on Amazon. I mix it with Acetone to make percussion cap sealant, as acetone by itself just flakes back out of the cap.

[2TM101]

The reaction between AN and copper brass can lead to the formation of a complex salt known as Tetraamminecopper(II) Nitrate. This is pretty sensitive and not something you'd want in your ammo. I'm not aware of anything like this occurring with potassium nitrate.

In addition the reaction degrades the integrity of the brass to where it is unsafe to fire and in time actually just falls apart. Germany used it in 1945 as they had no other powder source and it was a safe bet the ammunition wasn't going to lie around unused for very long.

[lavenatti]

Anyone know if they coated the inside of the cases with anything to prevent the reaction?

[perotter]

[/COLOR]
would you mind elaborating on this please?

In the black powder factories back in the day, They used brass and/or bronze bearings in shafts. Under certain conditions a primary was formed and would set off the powder being made. It's been said that this is the likely cause of most or nearly all of the gun powder fires and/or explosions.

[perotter]

The mention of Tetraamminecopper(II) Nitrate sparked my interest. There are Citations on numerous Internet search results to it being shock and sensitive. Thought that it might be interesting to pursue some day as a priming compound; but no citations found of it's velocity rate so no way of seeing if it is simply a "Phsssst" or a "Bangggg" The following shows how it can be made; but that is a "Round Tu-It" that is way down the list of priorities fort my time currently.

My loading and use of No.7 Smokeless Powder will be accomplished with "Storage" being only a couple of weeks as different batches are made for shooting if it works out reasonable. Long term Storage of Reloaded Boolits is currently commercial powder for me; not Home Made Powders that I will continue to be making and testing. Hope to get out next week and test the Reconstituted N0.7 powder I loaded in test rounds.

...

I'm of the opinion also that AN powders should be used up soon after loading, unless there happens to be some emergency. My understanding is that the Russians got rid of the Mosin ammo they had loaded with an AN powder as soon as possible as practice/training ammo after they got a succesful NC powder plant up and running.

From what those who have made it say, it can be either a pssst or a bang. They say it comes down to getting the trapped water out. To much of the water in the molecule and it's pssst. And it's not easy getting it out.

I researched it 3 or 4 times looking to see if I'd missed something. In the end I decided that given to the simple, proven primer compounds and mixes, I took it off my someday list.

[firefly1957]

In addition the reaction degrades the integrity of the brass to where it is unsafe to fire and in time actually just falls apart. Germany used it in 1945 as they had no other powder source and it was a safe bet the ammunition wasn't going to lie around unused for very long.

Thanks right now I am using WATCO spray lacquer it has both Nitrocellulose and acrylic I have some small glass bottles with a glass eye dropper I spray a bottle 1/3 full then fill with acetone . I then add a drop to each filled percussion cap and let them dry . I snapped a wet cap and it did not go off and hour later at 62 degrees and they went off fine.

I also looked up the copper compound as possible priming and could see nothing about the energy of it .

[barnetmill]

For drying I wonder if a vacuum would help to remove the danger of using heat in some of the mixtures. A slight vacuum can be achieve with running water.

A water aspirator is an inexpensive and dependable source of moderate vacuum in the laboratory. As the water rushes past a side arm aperture, a partial vacuum is formed. The lowest approximate pressure that can be achieved with this device is 10 mm of mercury or 10 torr.
A warm water bath can used to also prove some heat.

Picture below is being used for filtering, but could be used for drying in a water bath.