Unfortunately, we don't know that yet.Some cases, the longer one, are getting over crimped.
The OP has not yet been able to tell us whether the bare bullet itself
is short-stopping in the cylinder mouth, and if so, by how much.
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Unfortunately, we don't know that yet.Some cases, the longer one, are getting over crimped.
The OP has not yet been able to tell us whether the bare bullet itself
is short-stopping in the cylinder mouth, and if so, by how much.
The problem is many folks try to load 44 Special bullets that are sized .430".
https://www.mattsbullets.com/240-Gra...430_p_175.html
.430 bullets will (may) be OK
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...=1#post5672545
But we don't yet know where the OP's problem actually lies...
1. Bullet diameter itself ?
2. Bullet + Case (uncrimped) ?
3. Bullet + Case crimped too early in seating?
Until we know #1 - #3 (in order) we have too many variables
Cartridge dimensions vs Chamber dimensions....kind of like trying to install a Chevy big block in a little Honda 50 motorcycle....ain't really gonna work.
Cartridge Dimensions vs Case dimensions
1. More than likely the case neck/mouth area measurement of the case is exceeding the case neck/mouth area measurements of the chamber cut. (the bullet diameter, plus the case neck thickness), or any deformation of the case from crimping, has exceeded the chamber dimensions due to the over sized brass combined with the oversized bullets.
2. The go, no-go gauge may have different measurements than the firearm chamber.
3. The original 44-40 chamber is cut to accept .4255" JSP and .427" lead bullets with very thin necked Winchester brass. Loading with larger diameter bullets and thicker brass will cause issues pending the chamber cut dimensions.
4. The thin brass was not designed to be roll crimped, and doing so can create a slight "bulge" just below the crimp when used with deep groove lead bullets. This bulge will exceed chamber dimensions. Same when used in rifles, but the extra leverage when cycling with the lever...most do not realize they just forced the bullet (swaged) into the chamber. This is why the factory used/uses a bullet cannular just below the base of the bullet. It aids in keeping the bullet seated do to the lack of a good crimp and or neck retention. The Lee Factory Crimp Die may or may not create a bulge, pending the amount of crimp forced into the crimp groove.
Just the Tip Of The Iceberg
"44-40 bullets" are not 44-40 bullets just because "they work"....or may work, at least part of the time. The true 44-40 bullet is made up of three points;
1. Diameter - Officially .4255" JSP (Winchester) with a .4125" crimp groove and .427" Lead (Winchester) with no crimp groove.
2. Profile - a constant "curve" (O'give) from the crimp to the meplat. No exposed foreword driving band.
3. Length - JSP (.05925ish), Lead (.06105ish)
Over the years, manufactures deviated from, but not limited to, measurements and it has been chaos ever since.
This has never been the case for me - perhaps the Lee directions are not being read? The Lee FCD is a very different thing from the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. Only the FCD is available for the 44 WCF round.Originally Posted by BoBSavage
This image shows the Lee 38 WCF FCD being used to make a crimp. The way this one works is identical to the 44 WCF FCD. No way to make a bulge in the case.
True we don't know details about the bullet but, if the bullet was the issue then all loaded rounds would be a problem to load. The OP stated only a portion of the rounds fail to chamber. Then again a lot of times the guy posting says he did this or checked that but really has no clue so who really knows. But hey, I got my ceiling painted and the wife's happy!
If bullet diameter was an issue don't you think all rounds, not just 1/3, would fail to chamber or to not fit in the gage?
Depends on the minor variances, literally on the tangent angle, of the ogive curve.
Sure would like to rule it out though... and even if shortit would give us info for
max OAL and/or where to look down the list of other causes.
Are you saying that the Lee 44-40 bullet seating die does not roll crimp?
My standard Lee 44-40 seating die roll crimps if set to.
I barely crimp my 44-40 rounds because my gun is a single shot rifle.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I use the Lee FCD with every caliber I reload for. It allows the bullet seating die to be used only to adjust COAL. The FCD is used only to effect the crimp. Unlike the Carbide Factory Crimp Die which is entirely different.
Tall, you are confusing me.....
1. Lee does not offer a Carbide die for the 44-40...am I wrong? I think it has to do with the slight bottle neck.
2. Lee offers a normal steel seating die for the 44-40 that tapers (first setting) and roll crimps (second setting)...I believe that is in the "Instructions" you keep referring too. I am beginning to think that folks do read instructions, but they may not can interpret or understand them correctly....I raise my hand in guilt!
3. Lee offers the "LFC" for the 44-40 to be used on both bullets with or without a crimp groove.
Some modern .44-40s, to include the Ruger revolvers and Marlin rifles are assembled with barrels having the same. bore and groove diameters as their .44 Magnum barrels and require . 429-.430 bullets to shoot accurately. The Pietta and Uberti revolvers and Rossi rifles vary depending upon their date of manufacture.
It is necessary to slug your barrel, pin gage cylinder throats and cast and measure chamber neck diameter to determine correct bullet size.
Cylinder throat diameters of my 1908 Colt Single Action and 1920 New Service are both .430" with barrel groove diameters of .427. Factory jacketed softpoint ammo with .425" bullets shoots poorly. Hornady .430" diameter 200 XTPs with 18.5 grains of 4227 cut cloverleafs at 25 yards.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
Pretty sure I said Lee does not make a 44 WCF Carbide Factory Crimp Die. Lee does sell a Factory Crimp Die in 44 WCF. Not sure what you mean by "LFC".
Guys...thank you very much for ll the comments...took me a while to digest all of them and then cogitate on what to try and what made sense. i apologize for being MIA for a few days...got a lot going on here. Son who is 30 and severely handicapped a non verbal quadraplegic, and I have been on Daddy duty while Mama takes a respite for some fo her hobbies (quilting - which to me is like beong pecked to death by a duck, but she feels the same about mine). Moms 87 and in a nursing home with dimensia and having imaginary (but real to her) crisis. Called me the other day crying her eyes out very upset..told her I could help, she said not with this one. I told her to give me a shot....she says "I'm pregnant". I know I'm supposed to treat htem as if they are real, but that one made me chuckle. We got through it. It's a terrible desease. So..yeah, I been busy and haven;t been able to work this problem.
So, back to our troubled reloader. Here is some things I have tried and what I have found out. My suspicion was that I was crimping the bullets. That was partially true. I reseated all the dies in turret per the instructions. I did find that the seating die was too low and was engaging the roll crim even when I thought it wasnl;t set for that. Aftr fixong this, the pprobalenm still existed. I had two "factory" cartridges. I say factory as one was a little bent and could have been someone elses reload (very slight oil can wrinkle), so I disassembled it since I planned on reloading the brass and using the bullet as well (throw the powder). I mike-ed (I don't have a micrometer, so I used my calipers) the factory bullet (copper jacketed soft point) and it was at 0.425/0.426. Interesting and when I used it for a dummy load, it fit in the Cowboy chamber checker just fine...fell in and out with no problem. Interesting,,,,
I then mike-ed the cast bullets that I was using and they were at 0.431 and many mike-ed at 0.433. The bullets came from Meister and are clearly marked as 0.429 and specifically for the 44-40. So much for Meisters Quality Control. My sus[icions are that some. maybe none were sized aft casting and the mod casts at 0.431 or greater and they never resized them after casting. They are "as cast" bullets. I can still use them and they will probably shoot nicely in my 44 Mag and 44 Specials. Some loaded shells would fit the chamber checker because they were a smaller cast bullets, I think smae may have been sized and some not.
I als tried Hicks suggesting and removed the decapping pin and resized a sample I had made (with no primer or powder), and it wworked fine in the Chambeer checker. GREAT IDEA!!!! Thanks Hicks!!!! They did resize a little hard but it worked. I tried this sample in the rifle, which BTW is a lever action El Tigre (Winchester 92 action type). The rifle actually has "44 Largo" on the side, which is still 44-40. The shell does go in kind of hard, but haven't tried fitting any factory in it yet either (I don't like loading live bullets in a firearm in the house...I'll take it outside tomorrow in the light). I also suspect that although the new 44-40s may be 0.429, this may be (according to google 0.427). I have ordered some 0.427 from Grafs and Son.
Not sure if having sized the bullets like Hicks suggested, that the (0.429) bullets (that now fit the chamber checker) are safe to fire in the El Tigre? The Taylor and company is new and probably at 0.429. Given this I may need two different bullets of the same caliber...my original intention was to have a rifle and pistol of the same caliber using interchangable cartridges. When I get a chance. I may try them in both guns and see what I get for accuracy.
That's where I am....Thanks Again guys for all the help. I never expected some much response. What a great resource! Thanks Guys!
Bill
Get this and simply size them down to a uniform .429 or even .430
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categ...2/LEE-SIZE-429
Last edited by mehavey; 01-16-2024 at 02:17 AM.
Not exactly, which is what confused me. This is what you said, might not have been what you meant...or again. like directions...I failed to properly inturpret!
Again, I saw no previous mention of a carbide die by anyone else and couldn't figure out why you mentioned it in the first place.This has never been the case for me - perhaps the Lee directions are not being read? The Lee FCD is a very different thing from the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. Only the FCD is available for the 44 WCF round.
And yes, I failed to add the D to the LFCD, which is Lee Factory Crimp Die
My best advice for the 44-40 is the lee 452-200-rf in a neck sized 45 Colt case, then squint real hard when you load them and shoot them in a 45 Colt. 100% satisfaction lol
The El Tigre is a strong rifle and typical chambers are "generous" in terms of case neck diameter, typically .448-.450". If rounds with a lead bullet will chamber, they are safe to shoot.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
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