Black powder vs. Substitutes

[Arkansas Paul]

Quick question for you gents who shoot primitive style muzzleloaders.

I stumbled upon what I believe to be a good deal on an old Investarms Hawken rifle in .54 caliber the other day.
I was really intrigued by the gun.
I love the look of the old stuff, and really love the length of the gun (it's fairly short). It's in really good condition, so I figure $100 was a reasonable enough price.


But my question is regarding the powder.
In my modern inline, I use Pyrodex.
I'm thinking in the old style Hawken, real BP would be more appropriate. It's a regular cap, not a 209 primer, and I've heard BP is easier to ignite.

So am I thinking correctly?
Is BP any easier or harder to clean than Pyrodex? I use Ballistol, so I'm sure it will do the trick just fine.
But I've never shot the real stuff before.

[Rockingkj]

I would say $100 was a very good price. All I shoot is real black. Years ago with 1st ML used Pyrodex and had nothing but ignition issues. There is a a saying about going with real powder ( of something like that) and never going back. Quite true. Not difficult to clean. I do clean soon after finished shooting. Enjoy shooting that rifle.

[muskeg13]

I've got an Investarms .54 with a short barrel that I haven't shot in years (decades). When I was shooting it on a regular basis, I used Pyrodex RS exclusively with good results, shooting both .530 patched round balls and .54 HB Minié balls. Then, as now, Pyrodex was available everywhere, but black wasn't. The only ignition problems I had was when I tried to use Remington caps with many misfires. Everything was fine with RWS or CCI caps. Clean up was easy by removing the barrel from the stock and taking out the nipple. I'd clean it in the kitchen sink with hot water and a few drops of dish detergent. Afterwards, run a few dry patches down the barrel, use a pipe cleaner and q-tips in the vent, then run a few patches with any gun oil. Wipe off the stock with a damp rag then dry it.

Does your rifle have a chrome lined barrel? That makes cleaning mine easy.

[elmacgyver0]

I would say, if you can get black, why not use it?
If you have an inline designed to use pellets, that is another matter, of course black will work in that too.
It is all corrosive, so why not go with the real deal?
I somehow ended up with 3 cans of pyrodex but haven't use any yet, always had black powder.
At some point I will use it.
I haven't shot muzzle loaders in years, but made a New Year's resolution to remedy that!

[kungfustyle]

Pyrodex will work in your new gun and yes, flipping buy it for $100. Black powder is not hard to clean. When you get home from the range https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UegItShDG00
Bore butter is your friend and so is simple green. Run a patch down the bore when you notice its getting hard to load. Followed by a few dry patches. Now all you have to do is get the appropriate sized round ball mold and you'll be up and running. By the way old blue jeans make great patches.

[Arkansas Paul]

Here she is. I like it.
I've been wanting to play traditional muzzloaders for a while and was just waiting on the right deal.
Just measured the barrel. It's 23"

[elmacgyver0]

Here she is. I like it.
I've been wanting to play traditional muzzloaders for a while and was just waiting on the right deal.
Just measured the barrel. It's 23"

I would say you got an excellent deal, you will have a lot of fun with that.

[Arkansas Paul]

I would say you got an excellent deal, you will have a lot of fun with that.

I hope so. If the accuracy is acceptable, I plan on chasing whitetails with it come October.
I've killed several with an inline, but it would be awesome to get one the old way, especially with a ball or bullet I cast myself.

[Rockingkj]

Looks like a dandy rifle. Welcome to traditional BP shooting! Start the meeting with new members saying “ Hi I’m (insert your name), I’m a Blackpowder a holic”. Lol

[Rapier]

Never been a fan of Pyrodex or any other substitute for BP. At first the marketers and writers said it was not corrosive, then was not as corrosive, then is actually more corrosive than BP. Stuck with BP. I started getting in to my shop guns owned by folks that swallowed that line of non-corrosive, hook line and sinker. One great big rusty and corroded mess.

I use the old traditional method of cleaning, 5gal bucket of hot steaming water with Dawn, outside, a lage soft cloth swab on a cleaning rod, nipple out, breech plug out, make a hand pump of the swab, Run clean hot water through the scrubbed clean barrel, nipple, etc, Heat dry, oil after. Remove and clean the lock plate/hammer, in and out, re-grease.
I cleaned a BP gun inside "my wife's house", just once. Stunk up her whole house....not a thing you really want to repeat, if you expect a happy wife.

If new to BP shooting, get a bottle of rubbing alcohol and make extra large patches, swab after every shot with a dripping wet swab, you get a clean barrel for every shot and instant evaporation. Load with the hammer down to prevent the nipple filling with powder, fire from the cap has to go through the nipple into the chamber.

[country gent]

Let the rifle tell you what it wants. test with pyrodex and several graduations of BP also several brands IE Olde Ensforde, Swiss, Goex, Wano. Different thickness and types of patches. Maybe different dia balls. Let the rifle tell you what it wants to perform at its best.

Cleaning real BP isnt a big chore hot dish soap water In a bucket dip breach end of barrel in and pump with a tight fitting patch this will pull the soap water thru the nipple breech and barrel in both directions A muzzle protector is a good idea here. A minute or so of good full length pumps the water will be discolored and a second batch dosnt show much change. Dry and oil. This pulls and pushes the water out under pressure getting into crevices well. Dry well a blow dryer and dry patches. then a light oil or a wax oil based bullet lube patched into bore to preserve it. Wipe down the outside with a patch and oil the wood with a good stock wax.

These rifles can be a lot of fun. A possibles pouch, Powder Horn, and patch knife Really set them off and you can make them yourself.

[Sasquatch-1]

I think you got a tremendous deal. I have a Tradition's cap lock Hawken from the mid 70's that shoots great with Pyrodex RS. Just make sure you clean everything real well RIGHT after shooting.

[Arkansas Paul]

I just now realized that I posted this in the paper patching subsection. Should have been just the muzzleloading one.
Sorry bout that.

Thanks a lot for the replies.
I'm going to visit a black powder supply store on Saturday and see if they have any black powder in stock.
Can't wait to shoot this thing. It will be a completely new experience for me.

[gwpercle]

I just now realized that I posted this in the paper patching subsection. Should have been just the muzzleloading one.
Sorry bout that.

Thanks a lot for the replies.
I'm going to visit a black powder supply store on Saturday and see if they have any black powder in stock.
Can't wait to shoot this thing. It will be a completely new experience for me.

Let us know what you find in reguards to powder .
My first revolver was a cap & ball and in 1970's time real black powder was easy to get. I still have a small stash of real black powder from then . Might want to get a little more though . I have had no experience with the "substitutes" ... but was wondering what was available in the real stores ... I hope real black powder is still a viable option !Let us know what you find !

$100 for that Hawken Rifle...that was such a great deal that in some states it may be considered Highway Robbery !
Nice going , great looking smoke pole !
Gary

[trebor44]

Ignition can be an issue with any 'powder'. If RS is readily available use it while you search for the Holy Black. Some nipples can be the culprit for bad or delayed ignition. Here are some sites for BP shooting: Track of the Wolf, The Possible Shop, Buffalo Arm to name just a few. Muzzleloader forums exist for more info. And don't forget the ubiquitous "yube tube" videos! Of course good advice has preceded this post.

[Arkansas Paul]

Here are some sites for BP shooting: Track of the Wolf, The Possible Shop, Buffalo Arm to name just a few. Muzzleloader forums exist for more info. And don't forget the ubiquitous "yube tube" videos! Of course good advice has preceded this post.

Thank you very much trebor. I will definitely be checking those sites out.
I've heard of Track of the Wolf, but I'm not familiar with the other 2.
I'm a fiend for YT videos. I've found some good stuff already.
I always have trouble around this time of the year with figuring out what to do with myself. Football season is about to be over, deer season is over. Looks like this spring I'll be playing with black powder.

[Arkansas Paul]

Let us know what you find in reguards to powder.
Gary

I was fortunate.
They were pretty well stocked with 2f, 3f, and 4f.
It was crazy. Just a little store a guy runs out of his shop, but it was the most well stocked place I've ever seen. They have everything you need for black powder shooting from cleaning supplies, to parts, to powder, to projectiles, and even everything you need for casting, including pure lead. And the prices were very fair. I picked this pound of powder up for $28, which was less than I expected. I'll be back for sure.

This is the brand of powder they had in stock. Not top shelf from what I've researched, but should get me started.

[Springfield]

Shuetzen is considered by many to be better than most except for Swiss. Certainly better than Goex or even worse, Pyrodex, which is MUCH more corrosive than real BP. I have been shooting BP in SASS shoots for over 10 years and the only guns that ever rusted were the ones I used Pyrodex in. I got 5 lbs free form a friend that was moving, but wish now I had just thrown it away.

[M-Tecs]

Shuetzen is considered by many to be better than most except for Swiss. Certainly better than Goex or even worse, Pyrodex, which is MUCH more corrosive than real BP. I have been shooting BP in SASS shoots for over 10 years and the only guns that ever rusted were the ones I used Pyrodex in. I got 5 lbs free form a friend that was moving, but wish now I had just thrown it away.

I love Pyrodex. I haven't used it since the 70's when it first came out. Through the years I have been given about 1/2 BP guns that were seriously damaged due to not cleaning after use with Pyrodex. I was able to part them out for about $450 per profit.

[shdwlkr]

black Mg when it was available was a good substitue for real black.