turning a 30-06 case into 44-06 , how many times should I anneal the case and steps up sizing should I do? 30 cal to 33 cal , 33cal to 375 cal , 375cal to 44cal?
|
   
   
|
|
turning a 30-06 case into 44-06 , how many times should I anneal the case and steps up sizing should I do? 30 cal to 33 cal , 33cal to 375 cal , 375cal to 44cal?
Everyone will have a technique that works best for them. I've expanded 30-06 and 308 cases up to 44 by annealing and expanding to 8mm,375,40,44. I've also expanded the cases with tapered "M" die stems in two steps which is usually quicker, but you may have to anneal part way through if you're starting to get split cases. It's a little bit nicer on a cartridge like this to use belted brass so you don't have to headspace off of the case mouth.
Welcome aboard M1A2AbramsTank.Originally Posted by M1A2AbramsTank
Tell us a bit more about what you are doing. Enquiring minds and all...
Yes, welcome and tell us about your project.
I've expanded .308's to .416 using Lee tapered EZ X-pander's in 8mm, .338, .358, .375, .416, (MidwayUSA carries these, setup in Lee Universal Decapping Die). I annealed after .358 expand, then annealed again when case forming was complete.
The 'rimless' .444 at 2.225 case length has been around for many years and does use '06 brass. Might be search to look into for case forming.
Lubing the inside of the case, maybe more than once can make a big difference, I use Hornady Unique Case Lube on a 'Q-tip' for the inside of the neck.
That much expanding I think I would fireform. Its what I do with my 44-284. Lose about 10% to split necks though
Yes, welcome!
Please keep us posted. I have been thinking about a 444 rimless for many years but just not committed myself and funds to making one.
Back in the 1970's I had a Siamese Mauser converted to .45-70 and loved it! It got sold to help finance my education at technical school and didn't get replaced. I had thought seriously about converting a Lee Enfield to 444 Marlin as a replacement since I have several .44 moulds but didn't get to that partly due to the lack of 444 brass. It isn't gone but it isn't common. That got me thinking about 444 Rimless or 44 Warp and while they are wildcats, they are easy to form from commonly available brass.
To be honest I am a bit surprised a version of rimless .44 hasn't been made for the AR platform but now we have .45 Raptor.
Anyway, I will be interested to see what you do and how it works.
Are you planning on using full length .30-06 brass or trimmed shorter?
IF you haven't seen these links there may be something useful here:
https://www.migunowners.org/forum/sh...ess-444-marlin
https://www.rubiconownersforum.com/t...marlin.110961/
https://www.shootersforum.com/thread...-marlin.32036/
https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/post/44-wildcats-8077352
That last link reminded me... Moleman posts here so you might want to PM him as he has done this and likely has some helpful info.
Longbow
When making my .400 Whelen cases I just fireformed them. I think I might have lost one or 2 cases out of 100.
I put 10 grs of Reddot, filled to the base of the neck with COW, put a crayon in the neck and broke it off, then fireformed.
I annealed the cases after that.
Blkpwdrbuff
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty or Safety. "
Benjamin Franklin
"Time to take Brandon to the train station"
"The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible." ~ Hubert H. Humphrey
Imperial Sizing Wax is your friend.
Much effort can be saved by annealing the brass, then fire forming with 5gr Bullseye and 1/4 sheet of toilet paper, tamped into the case with a flat end new pencil, then fired into a cardboard box. No projectile, just confetti. No standing on head and spinning around three times. Sure saves a lot of bullets and range time.
“There is a remedy for all things, save death.“
Cervantes
“Never give up, never quit.”
Robert Rogers
Roger’s Rangers
There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
Will Rogers
Why not just start with Basic Brass ... unformed 30-06 cylinder , with no neck down.
Starline and Graf & Sons used to carry it .
For 44 cal. .429 ... it may not even need necking down .
To form 400 Whelen , neck down for the .411" projectile and it leaves a slight shoulder to headspace on ... only about .017" high ...
necking to 44 / .429"-428" ... isn't going to leave much to headspace on .
I believe the developer's of the 400 Whelen determined that it was as large a diameter bullet / boolit that could be used and still get a reliable shoulder to headspace off of . Over come the headspacing problem and you got that 44 cal .429 Wildcat by the Tail on a Down Hill Drag !
The 429 Abrams Tank sounds like a great name for your new wildcat
Welcome to the forum
Gary
Certified Cajun
Proud Member of The Basket of Deplorables
" Let's Go Brandon !"
Necking up is easier than down the brass will thin necking up it thickens going down sometimes causing problems. Buy new brass anneal the neck shoulder and fire form to the new case. Done right the case is good to go. Sizing up will get you close but the brass wont be ideal until after the first firing. I believe with a good tapered expander you could go 30-38 then 38 to 44 and then anneal and full length size to finish neck and form shoulder in place. Here you want the case to close with a slight amount of force.
Fire forming will take a little experimenting with the powder charge to get the case fully formed. Use a fast burning pistol powder and some wadding to hold powder in place.
After looking at my notes I need to correct some things on my .400 Whelen fireforming.
Fist, I did anneal before fireforming.
Second I used 18 gr of Bullseye to fireform.
Everything else was the same.
The .400 Whelen has a small shoulder so I don't know if you will even have a shoulder on a .44/06.
I was under the same impression as Whelen that the .411 diameter bullet was as big as you could reasonably go.
Blkpwdrbuff
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty or Safety. "
Benjamin Franklin
"Time to take Brandon to the train station"
"The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible." ~ Hubert H. Humphrey
No shoulder on 44-06 and the neck thickness is around .010". You still headspace off of the case mouth, but like I mentioned earlier it's nicer to use belted mag brass and headspace off of the belt.
Moleman, I will likely not get one built but I have to ask... for 444 rimless is there any particular problem headspacing on the case mouth? I know brass has to be trimmed properly and regularly but beyond that why would there be a problem?
Many cartridges head space on the case mouth. Is the brass thicker for those?
Longbow
Longbow, the only real issue revolves around the crimp and neck tension. You shouldn't roll crimp since it headspaces on the case mouth so you have to rely on neck tension and a taper crimp. Some "taper crimps" are very abrupt and act the same as a roll crimp. If over done the case mouth will slip into the freebore and when fired the bullet behind the crimp has to fit through that constriction. I've also seen guys crimp 350L, 450BM ect into a canelure on jacketed bullets which can also let the casemouth slip into the freebore if the casemouth diameter is reduced too much. Most straight walled cases still only have a regular .010"-.012" neck thickness, but some like the 450BM have a slightly thicker .015 case neck. I have a couple straight walled wildcats that have thicker necks and the only down side is lower pressure loads usually won't seal the case.
The last 10 seasons I've mainly hunted with straight walled cartridges that headspace on the case mouth. I have a few 350L and 450BM uppers, five rimless straight walled .429" rifles/uppers, four 357, .375, and .40 wildcats all of which headspace off of the casemouth. I've had no issues with headspace on any of them but have had some issues with bullet retention. This past season I mainly hunted with a semiauto straight walled 375 wildcat. The top cartridge in the magazine was likely chambered more than 25 times and was getting beat up before it let the bullet slip forward which I thought was pretty good. I have a 40 wildcat where lighter 175gr weight Barnes solid copper bullets with less bearing surface will slip after just a few chamberings in a semiauto. That same cartridge with the identical profile 195gr doesn't slip as easily and does a nice job on deer. I have been shooting a belted 44 since late summer is the reason I mentioned belted cases. You can put a heavy roll crimp on it into a canelure without it effecting headspace which is nice. Down side to it is that it required me to make a special sizing die as a 444 marlin die won't work like it will on 44-06 or 44-08.
Moleman, thanks for the explanation. I needed an education!
Does it make much if any difference if 444 rimless brass is made from .30-06 or .308? Just wondering if .30-06 brass may be a bit thicker further down the body than .308 at the mouth.
Longbow
longbow, 308 brass (2.015") is too short to make 444 (2.225") but it can be made with 30-06 (2.494"). I have used 308 to make shorter versions like 44amp, 44x1.6"(same length and case capacity as 445SM) and 44x1.8" but prefer 30-06 brass. The 308 seems to have more variation in thickness which brings up a good point. When making your reamer or having it made, give the case mouth dia a bit of wiggle room, but go snug to the bullet on the freebore for headspacing. I've gone .002"-.003" over the cartridge case mouth dia for the chamber neck/case mouth dia on 44 wildcats, but .005"-.006" makes forming cases a lot easier. Once I ran out of 06 range brass I started buying Starline to convert.
A rcbs 44 automag case forming die and reamer set can be used to uniform the cases if you're getting thick necks that are causing chambering issues and can't get the thickness small enough with a case trimmer reamer and don't want to turn the cases.
Last edited by Moleman-; 01-13-2024 at 05:30 PM.
Right you are! I was thinking .308 was long enough but didn't check. DOH! .44x1.8 would be a nice round too but then there is .45 Raptor and .460 dies can be used.
Have you done .44 in full length .30-06 brass blown out/necked up? That would be a thumper especially with heavy boolits of around 400 grs.
I am just thinking and window shopping currently so no immediate plans.
Thanks,
Longbow
Posting Permissions
| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
Reply With Quote