The Book of Life

[.429&H110]

Be careful of
"If I were God, I wouldn't do that"
or
"How could God have done that?"
You aren't God, He Is.

To deny the Miraculous is a slippery slope, as the Devil has a slippery shoe.
The Bible is not a buffet line, it is Thanksgiving Dinner!

In Genesis "...and God closed the door."
The Ark had no sail or rudder, it must have rolled like a canoe. Miraculous.

[justindad]

At the end of the day you either do want to be with your creator or you don’t. Humans lack the humility & faculties to truly understand how limited we are in absolute knowledge. Science is a process of modeling observations- it is not truth. Much of what we understand must be taken on faith.

If you’ve decided to spend eternity with your Creator, pray for understanding from the Holy Spirit as you read the Bible.

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

John 14:26 ESV

[Alabama358]

It is worth noting that some respected Jewish rabbis, who we might assume to be reasonably well-educated on the subject, were judging the Earth to be much older than the literal interpretation in Genesis, with estimates up to 2.5 billion years (and these opinions were being written in the 11th and 12th centuries).

What were the well respected Jewish rabbis names? I would like to research and see what they had to say.

Why would it be reasonable to assume that they were well-educated on the subject? were they Geologist or perhaps Paleontologist?

I also wonder what equipment or methods/science they were using back in the 11th century... must have been something reliable to get them to the 2.5 billion mark.

[Alabama358]

If you’ve decided to spend eternity with your Creator, pray for understanding from the Holy Spirit as you read the Bible.


John 14:26 ESV

GREAT advice!!!

[HWooldridge]

What were the well respected Jewish rabbis names? I would like to research and see what they had to say.

Why would it be reasonable to assume that they were well-educated on the subject? were they Geologist or perhaps Paleontologist?

I also wonder what equipment or methods/science they were using back in the 11th century... must have been something reliable to get them to the 2.5 billion mark.

Wiki is your friend - research to your heart's content:

"Some medieval philosophical rationalists, such as Maimonides[11] and Gersonides[12] held that not every statement in Genesis is meant literally. In this view, one was obligated to understand Torah in a way that was compatible with the findings of science. Indeed, Maimonides, one of the great rabbis of the Middle Ages, wrote that if science and Torah were misaligned, it was either because science was not understood or the Torah was misinterpreted.[13] Maimonides argued that if science proved a point that did not contradict any fundamentals of faith, then the finding should be accepted and scripture should be interpreted accordingly.[14] For example, in discussing Plato's view that the universe has existed literally forever, he argued that there was no convincing rational proof one way or the other, so that he (Maimonides) was free to accept, and therefore did accept, the literal biblical view that the universe came into being at a definite time; but that had Plato's theory been convincing enough with sufficient scientific proof he would have been able to reinterpret Genesis accordingly.[15] With regard to Genesis, Maimonides stated that "the account given in scripture is not, as is generally believed, intended to be in all its parts literal." Later in the same paragraph, he specifically states that this applies to the text from the beginning to the account of the sixth day of creation.[16]

Nachmanides, often critical of the rationalist views of Maimonides, pointed out (in his commentary to Genesis) several non-sequiturs stemming from a literal translation of the Bible's account of Creation, and stated that the account actually symbolically refers to spiritual concepts. He quoted the Mishnah in Tractate Hagigah which states that the actual meaning of the Creation account, mystical in nature, was traditionally transmitted from teachers to advanced scholars in a private setting.

A literal interpretation of the biblical Creation story among classic rabbinic commentators is uncommon. Thus Bible commentator Abraham ibn Ezra (11th century) wrote,

If there appears something in the Torah which contradicts reason…then here one should seek for the solution in a figurative interpretation…the narrative of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for instance, can only be understood in a figurative sense.[17]

Similarly, Saadiah Gaon wrote that Biblical verses should be interpreted non-literally if they contradict the senses or intellect.[18]"

[Alabama358]

Wiki is your friend - research to your heart's content:

"Some medieval philosophical rationalists, such as Maimonides[11] and Gersonides[12] held that not every statement in Genesis is meant literally. In this view, one was obligated to understand Torah in a way that was compatible with the findings of science. Indeed, Maimonides, one of the great rabbis of the Middle Ages, wrote that if science and Torah were misaligned, it was either because science was not understood or the Torah was misinterpreted.[13] Maimonides argued that if science proved a point that did not contradict any fundamentals of faith, then the finding should be accepted and scripture should be interpreted accordingly.[14] For example, in discussing Plato's view that the universe has existed literally forever, he argued that there was no convincing rational proof one way or the other, so that he (Maimonides) was free to accept, and therefore did accept, the literal biblical view that the universe came into being at a definite time; but that had Plato's theory been convincing enough with sufficient scientific proof he would have been able to reinterpret Genesis accordingly.[15] With regard to Genesis, Maimonides stated that "the account given in scripture is not, as is generally believed, intended to be in all its parts literal." Later in the same paragraph, he specifically states that this applies to the text from the beginning to the account of the sixth day of creation.[16]

Nachmanides, often critical of the rationalist views of Maimonides, pointed out (in his commentary to Genesis) several non-sequiturs stemming from a literal translation of the Bible's account of Creation, and stated that the account actually symbolically refers to spiritual concepts. He quoted the Mishnah in Tractate Hagigah which states that the actual meaning of the Creation account, mystical in nature, was traditionally transmitted from teachers to advanced scholars in a private setting.

A literal interpretation of the biblical Creation story among classic rabbinic commentators is uncommon. Thus Bible commentator Abraham ibn Ezra (11th century) wrote,

If there appears something in the Torah which contradicts reason…then here one should seek for the solution in a figurative interpretation…the narrative of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for instance, can only be understood in a figurative sense.[17]

Similarly, Saadiah Gaon wrote that Biblical verses should be interpreted non-literally if they contradict the senses or intellect.[18]"

Let us just start at the top with Maimonides...

The present legal status of Christianity is presented in this chapter. Maimonides views Christianity together with Islam. For Maimonides, Christianity and Islam are related to Judaism. Maimonides's practical view of Christianity was usually assumed to be negative and he regarded Christianity as a form of proscribed polytheism, even for gentiles. In his code of Jewish law, Mishneh Torah, Maimonides basically restated his judgment about the idolatrous status of Christianity without repeating the reasons he gave in his earlier works. As a theologian, he took regularly strong exemption to Christian Trinitarianism. Maimonides ranked Islam superior than Christianity on theological grounds. For him, Christianity is the prime example of the error of such anthropomorphism in its original doctrine of the Incarnation and in its associated doctrine of the Trinity.

So you go to the likes of Maimonides... the same Maimonides that rejects Christ, and futhermore in his teachings Ranks Islam as superior to Christianity?

Really? It is no wonder you have doubts.

[HWooldridge]

You asked for names and I provided several. Maimonides was a widely respected Jewish rabbi but there were others quoted - and we were discussing the Genesis story of Creation so his opinion of Christianity is immaterial. It’s interesting you picked on him to the exclusion of everyone else; nice try at distraction but I’m neither dissuaded or doubting.

That’s the common problem with literal interpretations, whether the Bible or Shakespeare - they don’t tolerate any room for discussion.

[Alabama358]

You asked for names and I provided several. Maimonides was a widely respected Jewish rabbi but there were others quoted - and we were discussing the Genesis story of Creation so his opinion of Christianity is immaterial. It’s interesting you picked on him to the exclusion of everyone else; nice try at distraction but I’m neither dissuaded or doubting.

That’s the common problem with literal interpretations, whether the Bible or Shakespeare - they don’t tolerate any room for discussion.

Laughable

[HWooldridge]

Sarcasm is the last refuge of the defeated wit…

It’s unfortunate that this thread is a fair representation of what goes in the world every day. Several posters have already alluded to being discouraged by answers from supposed subject matter experts when they asked rational questions. It’s a sad day when someone becomes so disillusioned they either abandon their faith or never come to the realization of Jesus Christ’s gift to the entire world.

[justindad]

Do not judge, so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Matt 7:1-2, NASB

At the very least, you give everyone an understanding of your capacity to judge, or lack thereof.

[Good Cheer]

The rebellion and Earth being old far beyond the creation of man isn't new.
The rebellious devil has been at work for a long, long time.

For those who study, our creator uses to His purposes what is available.

[.429&H110]

I am convinced the difference between old earthers and young earthers is funding.
I can't get paid for my beliefs, why should I pay them for theirs?
We need a better non-flammable battery, educate the kids, cure the common cold, useful stuff...

Since Galileo they have been building bigger telescopes.
Uof A is building the next huge infrared device for a mountain in Chile.
All these neat $10^10 Webb pictures are in invisible (to us) light.
So NASA has a room full of kids coloring the pictures in so that they look pretty.

To know God you need no telescope, nor microscope, you need only an open heart.
That is what I mean by aporia, irreconcilable.

[dverna]

Please do not get the thread closed.

I have said it before….Christianity is not as simple as some folks want to make it. We have over 1200 Christian sects. Why is that? They all use the same Bible.

What is simple is accepting Jesus. I would hope that is enough. Whatever interpretation or misinterpretation of the Word each of us or each sect clings to should not be a deal killer or a cause for animosity.

There are churches being torn apart with acceptance of gays, some allowing gays to minister. I find that difficult to accept but it is happening and I know people on both sides. They are good people too.

[HWooldridge]

Please do not get the thread closed.

I have said it before….Christianity is not as simple as some folks want to make it. We have over 1200 Christian sects. Why is that? They all use the same Bible.

What is simple is accepting Jesus. I would hope that is enough. Whatever interpretation or misinterpretation of the Word each of us or each sect clings to should not be a deal killer or a cause for animosity.

There are churches being torn apart with acceptance of gays, some allowing gays to minister. I find that difficult to accept but it is happening and I know people on both sides. They are good people too.

Accepting Jesus is certainly enough - Matthew 11: "28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

[dverna]

Accepting Jesus is certainly enough - Matthew 11: "28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Thank you HW.

I have little patience folks who "know" their interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one; and if someone does not accept their version everyone else goes to hell.

Therefore, let's face it, we have 1200 sects because people pick and choose the scriptures that "fit" their thinking. In the end Jesus does not care...if you accept Him as your savior.

My understanding is that if Hitler had truly repented and accepted Jesus before he died, Hitler will be in heaven when we get there. Jesus offers unconditional love and grace. Accept it and move on!!!

[Alabama358]

There are churches being torn apart with acceptance of gays, some allowing gays to minister. I find that difficult to accept but it is happening and I know people on both sides. They are good people too.

Romans 1:21-29
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

[Alabama358]

My understanding is that if Hitler had truly repented and accepted Jesus before he died, Hitler will be in heaven when we get there. Jesus offers unconditional love and grace. Accept it and move on!!!

I have never heard that... can you share your reference material???

[HWooldridge]

I have never heard that... can you share your reference material???

I think he’s alluding to the thief on the cross. It’s a similar concept - of course, extremely committed sinners probably don’t feel obligated to repent. They will go to the grave thinking their way was right. The thief next to Christ was an exception.

[dverna]

I think he’s alluding to the thief on the cross. It’s a similar concept - of course, extremely committed sinners probably don’t feel obligated to repent. They will go to the grave thinking their way was right. The thief next to Christ was an exception.

You are correct.

Alabama...ALL sins were forgiven when Jesus died for our sins. Yes, even the sins of a man like Hitler, or the man you may rape and murder your daughter and/or wife and/or mother.

My friend gave me the book "The Shack" by William Young when I started my faith journey. It is fiction, but an interesting read wrt to a topic like this. After reading it I realized I will never be the kind of Christian Jesus expects me to be. My sins are many, and thankfully, His mercy is more.

[Alabama358]

You are correct.

Alabama...ALL sins were forgiven when Jesus died for our sins. Yes, even the sins of a man like Hitler,

Don,
Yes I realize the endless capacity for Christ's forgiveness ... to be quite honest, I misread your post and thought you were stating that hitler had repented as apposed to if he had repented. sorry for the confusion.

Personally I think hitler had been given over to a reprobate mind and had been blotted out of the Lamb's book long before he checked out.