adapting between special and magnum

[delftshooter]

I dont cast yet, no room to do so, and i spent all my money on powder and primers.. so the supply of store bought lead will have to do for some time.

My bullet to try is the matts HP version of Lyman 358429

I know the official use of the bullet is to load it in a 38 special case, 12-13 grains of 2400, and crimp in the groove.

For magnum use I am supposed "crimp over the front band".

I am slightly wary of this loading data as previous matts bullets in 158 grain swc lead heavily with standard powder charges, and I have no clear photo showing the proper crimp in a magnum case. As i bought these for dog/coyote I need to have hope of expansion.

If used in 357 magnum cases, is it normal to try to put lube in the "crimp groove"

[Recycled bullet]

What gun are you going to be shooting this out of? Different guns have different length cylinders and that is the reason why you would crimp in the crimp Groove in 38 Special brass and crimp over the front driving band if you're loading it for a short cylinder 357 Magnum chambered gun. If you are in possession of a longer cylindered 357 gun then you can crimp in the crimp Groove in 357 brass and Party Like It's 1999.

My recommendation is to entirely rethink what it is that you're trying to do. How much experience do you have loading for 38 and 357 mag?

I have assembled and shot thousands of 38 Special Ruger Blackhawk only loads. I will continue to do so on an as needed basis however would never recommend a new reloader to do the same. Are you a new reloader and are you trying to make Ruger only loads? Please be safe.

[delftshooter]

experience,, lets see I have used up 1 pound of Bullseye for wadcutters in special and magnum brass. And i have used up half a pound of 2400,4227 each for swc usage. And i believe half a pound of red dot.

The bullets are hollow pointed to expand,, I am asking this question as I am using a Taurus Model 66 7 shot revolver. It has a short cylinder, and dummy rounds using magnum brass crimped into the crimp groove stick out of the cylinder. I have tried Elmer level loads in 38 special before with extreme leading issues.. commercial bullets suck miserably.

And the heavy duty loads are proven to be safe, but i have to get a tad bit of assurance as I have not been able to find a photograph of the bullet correctly crimped into a magnum case.

[Recycled bullet]

Start by making sure that the bullets are correctly sized to pass through your cylinder. What that means is open the revolver cylinder and drop bullets into the cylinder holes and if they fall through and hit the floor with only their own weight pushing them the bullets are undersized and will lead badly. Undersized bullets are severely undesirable. What you want is there to be a slight resistance where you can slightly push them through using a pencil or a dowel. This means that the cylinder is slightly sizing all the bullets . If you are unable to push the bullets through the cylinder holes then they are oversized this is also undesirable but you can fix this by sizing them to a smaller size that will then pass through the cylinder light hand pressure.

What is the most accurate load you have developed tested and shot out of that Taurus? And at what distance did you shoot the testing? How many shots can you make before the gun becomes full of lead?

[Kai]

Crimping over the front driving band is common and straight forward. It is exactly what it says. Lube in the crimp groove? You certainly can as the crimp groove will be inside the case. As for the leading issue you might want to check with Matt about his bullet diameter in relation to your cylinder throats and bore diameter. The bullet mentioned is advertised as being .359. Perhaps Matt offers the bullet in a larger diameter? As mentioned it sounds like the bullets are to small diameter for your gun.

[nicholst55]

I have loaded and fired more than a couple of 358429 bullets in .357 Mag brass, crimped in the crimping groove in various revolvers. Normally, only short-cylinder guns like the N-frame S&W .357s require crimping over the driving band. Almost all other .357 revolvers allow for full length seating. While you probably won't hurt anything crimping over the front band, it probably isn't necessary. It does reduce powder capacity and could conceivably increase the pressure of your loads. Your gun(s)/ammo, your choice.

[cowboy4evr]

I have shot the Keith load , 13.5 grs of 2400 using his bullet and in a 38 special case . I found it very accurate and enjoyable and it did not lead the barrels of any of my 387's . But ----- I had also taken the time to correct any problems such as --- under size cylinder throats or the usual " tight spot " where the barrel threads onto the frame which will down size your bullet reducing accuracy and causing leading of the barrel . I would say these items need to be checked first before worrying about Matt's bullets.

[rintinglen]

A useful practice when developing a new load is to make a dummy cartridge and test it in the chamber of the gun you intend to use it in. This will let you know if YOUR gun will accept the cartridge you are trying to manufacture. My model 28 needed the cartridge crimped over the shoulder to fit in the cylinder. None of my other 357's did. Be aware that loading 12+ grains of 2400 is safe for your 357, but NOT safe for many 38 special revolvers.

[delftshooter]

Havent shot these bullets yet, havent loaded them yet. ive been trying to get the right loading data for them and its not fun.

Since they are hollow pointed, can i use the same data as the 160 grain SWC version that uses the same base and crimp location, or do i need to use the standard loading data for 170 grain solic swc and take a hit in velocity.

NO THESE slugs dont just fall through, nor do they push through with a dowl or pencil pushing on them. The cylinder throats DO however mush the front band down enough to let them insert into a few cylinders from the muzzle end.

but a photo of a properly seated and crimped slug in a 357 mag case would be helpful.

[Recycled bullet]

It is generally safe to start load development with data for a heavier bullet that is similar to what you are loading.
Bullet weight, seating depth, overall length are valuable to notice.
Then work up or incrementally test increasing powder charges until groups enlarge on target or unsafe signals of pressure appear.

[Recycled bullet]

but a photo of a properly seated and crimped slug in a 357 mag case would be helpful.

I just made this picture right now for you. This is the MP358429 with the Deep hollow point pins loaded into 38 Special brass. The crimp that I do for 357 Magnum is functionally identical in the groove, they fit the cylinder of my Ruger Blackhawk in full length Starline brass. I have never crimped over the front driving band for 357 mag. I crimped in the crimp Groove whether they're in 38 Special or 357 Magnum casings.

[delftshooter]

thats alot softer then how my dummy rounds came out.. unfortunately my magnum dummy crimped in crimp groove is to long to rotate through the window. And im a tad to lazy to try to cut them down for a better fit.

[rkrcpa]

While not your exact bullet, this is a good representation of what is meant by seating over the front band.



To me, it seems like you need to make sure the dimensions of your revolver are optimized for lead bullets. Based on the Matt's Bullets website you are using a relatively soft bullet (11 bhn) making proper dimensions even more critical if you intend to run these at maximum velocity.

[charlie b]

All above is good advice.

I would note that some of Matt's bullets list a recommended max vel of 1000fps so I would load to that. Since you would be loading to a .38spl over all length I'd make sure to check your load data for that number. Some book load data will show for crimping in the groove, which will give you a different velocity and pressure than crimping over the drive band. The 'easy' way out would be to look up .38spl +P loads.

I would not be concerned with expansion for pest loads (dogs or coyotes). The SWC will do ok without the expansion. Shot placement is more important.

[delftshooter]

All above is good advice.

I would note that some of Matt's bullets list a recommended max vel of 1000fps so I would load to that. Since you would be loading to a .38spl over all length I'd make sure to check your load data for that number. Some book load data will show for crimping in the groove, which will give you a different velocity and pressure than crimping over the drive band. The 'easy' way out would be to look up .38spl +P loads.

I would not be concerned with expansion for pest loads (dogs or coyotes). The SWC will do ok without the expansion. Shot placement is more important.

ive used some of his other options that leaded at 800 fps.. so ive been wondering on things with lube.

[Recycled bullet]

Hey the MP359 Hammer hollow point bullet fits the cylinder on Taurus tracker 627 loaded in starline 357 brass.

[charlie b]

ive used some of his other options that leaded at 800 fps.. so ive been wondering on things with lube.

That would lead me to look at bullet dia, cyl bore, forcing cone and barrel sizes. First step might be to push a bullet from muzzle to exit out the 'back'. If it starts out hard to push and gets progressively easier to push then the barrel is probably ok. I notice you checked the cylinder bores. Did you 'slug' the barrel throat to see what size it is?

Unfortunately I haven't fired a bare lead bullet in a pistol for quite a while. I either use gas checks or powder coat, or both.

Have you fired jacketed loads in this pistol?