accuracy with different bullets: style, type, weights, etc....

[castmiester]

I only casted one weight, style, profile for my .357 magnum Taurus 66 with a 4 inch barrel. Really can't expect much out of this pistol I own. Eventually I would like to experiment with some surplus rifles and wanted to know how to go about it without spending a fortune and buying stuff I don't need, so PLEASE give me some ideas WITHOUT having me unload my bank account all at once ! LOL

Loading jacketed bullet loads doesn't seem as difficult unlike cast loads ? I tried my hand at the .35 Remington M760. Didn't stick at it long enough to get great accuracy, but I guess at the ranges it's limited to, I shouldn't expect the accuracy I get with the jacketed loads I get with it.

I have the Lee Manual with rifle powder loads. Also have ingots at WW BH

[mnewcomb59]

Surplus rifles can be tough to shoot with cast bullets. Many times the bore is pitted. Very often the throat is enlarged. You usually want to use a bullet that fills the throat - but surplus rifles can have the throat enlarged enough that the correct cast bullet size won't fit in the chamber neck. Surplus rifles often have a very fast rate of twist. The 7-8mm rifles all used roughly 220gr round nose bullets when they were designed, then the governments switched to a lighter spitzer bullet. This fast twist makes it hard to get good accuracy above 1700-1800 fps with a lead bullet.

A better cast bullet rifle would be that 35 Rem. That has a 16" twist. If it isn't shooting too accurately, try .001" larger bullet. If it still isn't shooting accurately, you probably have constrictions in the bore under the dovetails. Firelap it. You should be able to get a 200-220 gr bullet going at least 2000 fps with 2 MOA accuracy at 100 yards.

Or get some other lever action in a mid-large bore such as 357 Mag, 45 colt, 38-55. There are some 30 cal barrels with a 12" twist and some with 10" twist. If you wanna shoot 30 cal get one with a slow twist barrel. 12" is somewhat common on 308 and 14" twist is a common aftermarket twist rate.

[charlie b]

Accuracy will depend more on the rifle than the bullet, especially the barrel.

The surplus market right now is high. You can buy a new rifle for less and have a good chance at better accuracy than a run of the mill surplus rifle. But, if a surplus rifle is what you want then go for it. Search for one with a good barrel.

Once you have the rifle, slug the bore and throat to see what size bullet you need. Get a slightly oversize mold and a sizing die to match the rifle. There are several bullet designs that have become almost a standard for certain bore diameters, such as the Lyman 311299 or 314299.

Sizing.
1. Lubesizer. Standard way to go. Kinda foolproof but more expensive initial cost.
2. Push through sizer (does not lube). The NOE setup is the most flexible.

Lube
1. Lubesizer. Again, simple but have to buy one.
2. Tumble lube - Lee Liquid Alox (or mixes). Some love it, some don't.
3. Pan lube. Cheap, a bit messy. For low volume works well.
4. Powder coat. Just need a toaster oven. Works really well but some bullet designs don't work well with it.

I started with pan lube decades ago. Then got a lubesizer. Sold it. When I started again I did powder coat. Then got another lubesizer. I still PC some bullets and for others I use the lubesizer.

PS yes, shooting cast in rifles accurately is not as easy as most pistols. But, 2MOA accuracy is not hard to come by if you take care making the bullets.

PPS I agree with above that starting with your .35Rem would be a good place to start. You should be able to get close to factory accuracy if you take your time. Search around for bullet recommendations and try it.

[longbow]

There are a few basics you should look at right from the start like:

- slugging your barrel to determine groove diameter
- mic bullets to determine cast/sized diameter which should be at least 0.001" over groove diameter
- hardness of boolit alloy... the hardness has to suit the pressure/velocity you are trying to achieve within reasonable limits at least and more important at higher pressures and velocities
- does your mould have a gas check shank? I am not a handgun or .357 mag. guy but my understanding is that .357 mag. seems to need a gas check for anyhjing beyond moderate loads. I get away with PB boolits in my .44 mag. Marlin at "J" bullet loads with a bit of minor gas cutting but good accuracy.
- suitable powders... some combinations of boolit and powder will work better than others. The Lyman cast Bullet Handbook is a good place to start because they list what works.
- lube, some lubes work bette than others so check what other people ahve had success with or use a recommended brand of cast boolit lube
- some designs andf weights of boolits may perform better than others. You can buy commercial cast boolits in a few popular designs to try before choosing a new mould if you find a design that works well for you

If the boolits are undersize you will not get good accuracy.

If the alloy is too hard or soft you may not get good accuracy.

If you are getting gas cutting you will not get good accuracy. I shoot into something I can recover boolits to check for gas cutting.

If you take care of the details you should be able to get good to excellent accuracy fairly easily.

I am sure you will get some responses from .357 mag. shooters that will help.

Longbow

[castmiester]

Surplus rifles can be tough to shoot with cast bullets. Many times the bore is pitted. Very often the throat is enlarged. You usually want to use a bullet that fills the throat - but surplus rifles can have the throat enlarged enough that the correct cast bullet size won't fit in the chamber neck. Surplus rifles often have a very fast rate of twist. The 7-8mm rifles all used roughly 220gr round nose bullets when they were designed, then the governments switched to a lighter spitzer bullet. This fast twist makes it hard to get good accuracy above 1700-1800 fps with a lead bullet.

A better cast bullet rifle would be that 35 Rem. That has a 16" twist. If it isn't shooting too accurately, try .001" larger bullet. If it still isn't shooting accurately, you probably have constrictions in the bore under the dovetails. Firelap it. You should be able to get a 200-220 gr bullet going at least 2000 fps with 2 MOA accuracy at 100 yards.

Or get some other lever action in a mid-large bore such as 357 Mag, 45 colt, 38-55. There are some 30 cal barrels with a 12" twist and some with 10" twist. If you wanna shoot 30 cal get one with a slow twist barrel. 12" is somewhat common on 308 and 14" twist is a common aftermarket twist rate.

I'm guess you're talking about the stock inletting.....and what does fire lapping have to do with that ?

[castmiester]

There are a few basics you should look at right from the start like:

- slugging your barrel to determine groove diameter
- mic bullets to determine cast/sized diameter which should be at least 0.001" over groove diameter
- hardness of boolit alloy... the hardness has to suit the pressure/velocity you are trying to achieve within reasonable limits at least and more important at higher pressures and velocities
- does your mould have a gas check shank? I am not a handgun or .357 mag. guy but my understanding is that .357 mag. seems to need a gas check for anything beyond moderate loads. I get away with PB boolits in my .44 mag. Marlin at "J" bullet loads with a bit of minor gas cutting but good accuracy.
- suitable powders... some combinations of boolit and powder will work better than others. The Lyman cast Bullet Handbook is a good place to start because they list what works.
- lube, some lubes work better than others so check what other people have had success with or use a recommended brand of cast boolit lube
- some designs and weights of boolits may perform better than others. You can buy commercial cast boolits in a few popular designs to try before choosing a new mould if you find a design that works well for you

If the boolits are undersize you will not get good accuracy.

If the alloy is too hard or soft you may not get good accuracy.

If you are getting gas cutting you will not get good accuracy. I shoot into something I can recover boolits to check for gas cutting.

If you take care of the details you should be able to get good to excellent accuracy fairly easily.

I am sure you will get some responses from .357 mag. shooters that will help.

Longbow

My pistol is .358 groove, and the mould is .358. My casts are WW, which is 13 BH. I thought about .359 bullets to see if I need a larger mould. I'll give it whirl and see. I have a shank for GC's yes. A load at ~1100 fps with 158 grain SWC bullet crimped Beveled based. Barrel is clean not showing gas cutting.

[castmiester]

There are a few basics you should look at right from the start like:

- slugging your barrel to determine groove diameter
- mic bullets to determine cast/sized diameter which should be at least 0.001" over groove diameter
- hardness of boolit alloy... the hardness has to suit the pressure/velocity you are trying to achieve within reasonable limits at least and more important at higher pressures and velocities
- does your mould have a gas check shank? I am not a handgun or .357 mag. guy but my understanding is that .357 mag. seems to need a gas check for anyhjing beyond moderate loads. I get away with PB boolits in my .44 mag. Marlin at "J" bullet loads with a bit of minor gas cutting but good accuracy.
- suitable powders... some combinations of boolit and powder will work better than others. The Lyman cast Bullet Handbook is a good place to start because they list what works.
- lube, some lubes work bette than others so check what other people ahve had success with or use a recommended brand of cast boolit lube
- some designs andf weights of boolits may perform better than others. You can buy commercial cast boolits in a few popular designs to try before choosing a new mould if you find a design that works well for you

If the boolits are undersize you will not get good accuracy.

If the alloy is too hard or soft you may not get good accuracy.

If you are getting gas cutting you will not get good accuracy. I shoot into something I can recover boolits to check for gas cutting.

If you take care of the details you should be able to get good to excellent accuracy fairly easily.

I am sure you will get some responses from .357 mag. shooters that will help.

Longbow

I read a consideration about oversized bullets jamming in the chamber. My .358 bullet fit with a little wiggle room in the chamber end, which measures .361, not where they load from, and are soft enough if I oversized it. I tested them to be ~13 BH.

[dondiego]

I'm guess you're talking about the stock inletting.....and what does fire lapping have to do with that ?

Has to do with bore constrictions due to dovetails and barrel threads constrictions. Nothing to do with stock inlets.

[castmiester]

Has to do with bore constrictions due to dovetails and barrel threads constrictions. Nothing to do with stock inlets.

and what exactly is that ?

[Dusty Bannister]

I am a bit concerned that you are entering the relatively unknown practice of reloading cast bullets and apparently not even having read a good cast bullet handbook, like the Lyman Cast bullet handbook, 4th edition. It will give you a much better understanding of the various factors in the practices of casting and reloading cast bullets for both handguns, and rifles.

One of your concerns is not opening the wallet and watching the money fly out. I really think you are going to end up spending a lot more by not knowing what is necessary and what is nice as far as reloading equipment. It has already been suggested that you get the Lyman manual, and I fully agree. Then you will understand why a neck expanding stepped die is almost critical in working with bottle neck cast bullet reloading dies. I encourage you to take the opportunity to read a lot more before you jump into this enjoyable and life long hobby of casting and reloading.

[castmiester]

I am a bit concerned that you are entering the relatively unknown practice of reloading cast bullets and apparently not even having read a good cast bullet handbook, like the Lyman Cast bullet handbook, 4th edition. It will give you a much better understanding of the various factors in the practices of casting and reloading cast bullets for both handguns, and rifles.

One of your concerns is not opening the wallet and watching the money fly out. I really think you are going to end up spending a lot more by not knowing what is necessary and what is nice as far as reloading equipment. It has already been suggested that you get the Lyman manual, and I fully agree. Then you will understand why a neck expanding stepped die is almost critical in working with bottle neck cast bullet reloading dies. I encourage you to take the opportunity to read a lot more before you jump into this enjoyable and life long hobby of casting and reloading.

I have an expander die, and am aware of what has to be done in that regard. I have a few manuals by Lyman and am aware of expanding necks considering the bullet is oversized, having cowboy dies. Casted, sized appropriately, loaded and shot without any issues, just not accurately, is pretty much my only dilemma. I found out seeing a bulge from using standard dies to load an oversized bullet and they chambered a little rough. Just so you know I spent alot less casting then loading jacketed, I can tell you that. Along the way, I picked up things from forums like this, not everything, but some things. I should have picked up an advanced hand loading book, and that probably would have been fine. A Redding body die, and a Lee Collet neck die with a over sized mandrel custom from Lee, serves me well. It's a learning thing, as we go along this long and winding road of accuracy. Just because a book suggests how to do something a certain way, doesn't mean it's the cheapest way or the only way. I do believe the only thing I lack here is what someone said here.... a good barrel and an oversized cast boolit. The barrel is what I lacked, and if I cast an oversized bullet, at the right hardness, with the right load with a good barrel, I'm sure I'll reach a factory load or better sooner or later.

from Lyman...#4, and seems this is the most critical thing....

not to overheat when reheating for a period of time that would weaken the cast, from melting an ingot to pouring into a mold...and as a result as a less than optimum strength quality. When I first casted bullets in my mold, I had crystallization, which was too much heat.. after that I adjusted the furnace to maintain the temperature accordingly. Once I reached the correct heat casting, now that I think about it, not smelting the WW's ! But I was comfortable when I saw consistent BHN's after the fact.


Thanks.

[longbow]

In reasponse to your question to dondiego, my 1894 Marlin was leading and had mediocre accuracy with cast boolits when I got it. First thing I found is that the groove diameter ran 0.4315" where my Lyman mould was casting at 0.429"/0.430" so undersize which resulted in poor accuracy and leading. I fattened up the boolits to 0.434" and that solve leading and improved accuracy but not as much as I would have thought.

I read on the Marlin owners forum that many Marlins have tight spots in the barrel under roll stamping and dovetails so I slugged my barrel and sure enough! I had several tight spots! Shouldn't be but there were. I decided I'd had enough and hand lapped to remove the tight spots and that improved accuracy considerably and virtually eliminated leading.

Some revolvers have tight cylinder throats and/or forcing cones squeezed by the threads. Both can size down boolits so they are then undersize for the groove diameter of the rest of the barrel. Same net effect I had and it is possible that there are tight spots under front sight doevtail and barrel threads. If you don't check, you don't know.

I will say again that I am not a handgun guy but I am sure that if you size boolits correctly and take care of details like tight spots in cylinder throats and barrel, if there are any, you should be able to get "J" bullet accuracy at good velocities from your revolver. You should be using gas checks if the cast bullet has a gas check shank as well.

None of this costs much of anything if you have a few basic skills... well, if cylinder throats are tight then you'd have to pay for reaming and matching. Other than that it is typical alloying, casting and sizing then matching load to what the gun likes.

You can also find a copy of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd ed. online of you look... here I'll save you the trouble:

https://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Man...-%20Reduce.pdf

and some of the old Ideal and Lyman reloading manuals and some other good reading:

https://www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/up...Handbook38.pdf
https://www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/up...tBullets-s.pdf
https://www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/up...-Cast-Sup1.pdf
https://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/...%2340-1955.pdf
https://www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/up...08/Lyman44.pdf
https://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Man...%20-%20ocr.pdf
https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...-cast-bullets/

Now, all that cost was a bit of my time!

Read through and see what you can learn. Arm yourself with knowledge, not speculation (there are a lot of old wive's tales floating around too!). If you run into problems, ask questions and someone will have an answer.

I am a simpleton and try to keep things pretty basic so use almost exclusively ACWW for cast bullets from .44 mag., .308 Win., .303 British, .45-70 and 12 ga. slugs. In some cases I heat treat the boolits for higher velocities in .303 with heavy boolits and the 1:10" twist which was too much for ACWW. Mostly I just use ACWW with little if any problems at all as long as boolit fit to groove is good and lube is good.

Longbow

[Bass Ackward]

The questions you ask can only be answered by Professor Gun. No way round it. Spend, don’t spend, it’s really a conversation between you and the gun over a long period of time. And in the end, experimentation stops when satisfaction sets in. And the only one that can answer when that occurs is you.

[castmiester]

Ah.... yes I remember (tight spots, dovetails) slugging..... so that's why he said Firelap, got it. Dovetails, some rifles have a dovetail machined in the barrel, and that creates a tight spots in the barrel.

Great Info Longbow ! I really appreciate it ! Thank You !

[castmiester]

The questions you ask can only be answered by Professor Gun. No way round it. Spend, don’t spend, it’s really a conversation between you and the gun over a long period of time. And in the end, experimentation stops when satisfaction sets in. And the only one that can answer when that occurs is you.

Most Definitely....but, It's nice to learn from other peoples trails and errors too ! Although it comes down to opening the wallet to get the money out to move along in that process, and having it to spend too.

Appreciate the advice.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I only casted one weight, style, profile for my .357 magnum Taurus 66 with a 4 inch barrel. Really can't expect much out of this pistol I own. Eventually I would like to experiment with some surplus rifles and wanted to know how to go about it without spending a fortune and buying stuff I don't need, so PLEASE give me some ideas WITHOUT having me unload my bank account all at once ! LOL

Loading jacketed bullet loads doesn't seem as difficult unlike cast loads ? I tried my hand at the .35 Remington M760. Didn't stick at it long enough to get great accuracy, but I guess at the ranges it's limited to, I shouldn't expect the accuracy I get with the jacketed loads I get with it.

I have the Lee Manual with rifle powder loads. Also have ingots at WW BH

What are your goals for shooting Mil surp rifles?
Are you OK with shooting published cast boolit load speeds? which are typically less than published Jacketed bullet load speeds. Or are you looking for high velosity?
.
It's very easy to get "as good" if not "better than" accuracy with cast boolits at published cast boolit load speeds.
If you want jacketed speeds from your cast boolits in a rifle, things need to be more perfect.

Number one thing is cast boolit design matching the chamber/throat of your Rifle...we say, "Fit is King".

I am not gonna go any further, as this is advanced cast boolit loading, and you need to know the basics first. Have you read "From ingot to target" yet. The book is free online.
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP>>>

I do believe the only thing I lack here is what someone said here.... a good barrel and an oversized cast boolit. The barrel is what I lacked, and if I cast an oversized bullet, at the right hardness, with the right load with a good barrel, I'm sure I'll reach a factory load or better sooner or later.

Fit is King.
If you don't have a cast boolit that fit's your gun's throat, you will have problems with whatever good barrel, oversized boolit, right hardness, right load, that you have.

Many Mil surp guns have barrels that look like a sewer pipe when looked at with a bore scope, but will still shoot 'X Ring' if you have a boolit that fits your rifle's throat pushed by a reasonable published load for a cast boolit.

[castmiester]

My recent Lee lists using rifle powder depending on BH of the bullet. I don't think it's that difficult of a venture to be honest. The one point someone made was the right bullet profile for varying throat conditions which I never took into consideration before. I do have Lymans 3rd edition too.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP>>>

from Lyman...#4, and seems this is the most critical thing....

not to overheat when reheating for a period of time that would weaken the cast, from melting an ingot to pouring into a mold...and as a result as a less than optimum strength quality. When I first casted bullets in my mold, I had crystallization, which was too much heat.. after that I adjusted the furnace to maintain the temperature accordingly. Once I reached the correct heat casting, now that I think about it, not smelting the WW's ! But I was comfortable when I saw consistent BHN's after the fact.

Get a Lead thermometer. Ideally you want the molten alloy at about 100º F above liquidus temp. That number varies from one alloy to another. It's best to know the melt temp and liquidus temp of your alloy by measuring with your thermometer. BUT, more importantly you want the mold temp, somewhere around 375º F, you control that by your casting rhythm, that is the time from one drop to the next drop, some of us use a small fan to help control that.

[castmiester]

A thermometer came with the furnace. I made ingots without a thermometer, would that be a problem when I go to cast ?