Hopkins and Allens 32-20 antique falling block ??????

[pull the trigger]

Hey folks. The above rifle is on GB, has been for a month, they want $1k for it. Its a nice lookin little rifle. Anyone know anything about them? is it way overpriced? Thanks

[Tall]

Unless you have brass already it's pretty hard to find and expensive when you do. Factory loaded ammo does not exist.

[Rockingkj]

I have one in .22 LR and it’s a dandy rifle. Actually better made in my opinion than Stevens until you get to the 44 and 44 1/2 action. 32-20 hard to get but not impossible. 1k seems a bit high to me. But I would give it a hard look. Most Hopkins and Allen’s like that one I have seen are .32 rimfire and that another level of misery for ammo.

[Bent Ramrod]

The H&A falling blocks came in three sizes. The small size is relatively common and was mostly used for rimfire cartridges, but some few (marked with Merwin&Hulbert as the distributor, IIRC) have been observed in .32-20 caliber. These would be rarities to a collector and command a premium, but I can't imagine paying $1000 for one myself.

The medium size is the "adult" size, as the Stevens 44 was the "adult" sized Favorite. These are less common than the small sizes, or (IME) the large sizes either. They look neat, but are made of malleable iron castings with slip-fit barrels held by a set screw, so are about the same quality as a Stevens 44. There was a "Scheutzen" model, with a Swiss buttplate, that might command a premium, but I still don't think money is worthless enough (yet) for one to ask $1000, unless, maybe it's a pristine specimen in perfect condition. But I wouldn't pay that much.

Finally there was the large size, which was typically made into 12, 16 or 20-gauge shotguns. Sometimes a rifle barrel shows up that fits as well. Again, nowhere near worth $1000.

Of course, condition and finish plays a part in the value. The ones I see are generally no better than NRA "Fair" in finish, brown patina on the metal, darkened and dinged stocks, with shot-out barrels and maybe a few parts needing replacement. I'd grab these up for no more than $125, back in "the good old days." One still needs the innards for the peculiar trigger-adjusting mechanism some of them had.

The predecessor of the medium size H&A was called the Bay State. They were made of better materials to a nicer finish. Somebody might be justified in asking $1000 for one, but they've always been out of my price range, for the few I've ever seen. Very rare.

I think, though, that the fact the rifle has sat for a month with no nibbles answers the question of what it's worth better than any appraisal.

[Jedman]

I agree with Bent Ramrod that it is way overpriced. I went on GB to see the particular rifle and was not impressed with the condition which that is the way all of the ones I have seen have been in.
I believe that to be the medium action and do not believe it’s up to firing hi speed 32-20 ammunition, when it was made I think that 32-20 or 32 WCF was still a black powder cartridge.
I think a lot of sellers price their guns really high and list them as a fixed price or buy it now price hoping someone will be in the mood and hit the buy button. There is or was a H&A small action rifle that was on GB for over 5 years priced like that, it may still be there but I didn’t look for it. It was from a seller in OH. That size H&A rifle and that caliber are more rare but in my opinion not worth that price.

Jedman

[marlinman93]

Very few Hopkins & Allen rifles will get $1000, and that's not one of them. I'd say it's worth about half what they have on it.
As for .32-20 it is maybe tough to find loaded ammo, but extremely easy to find brass for if you reload. I just checked at Starline and it's in stock for $42 per bag of 50 pcs. And there's .32-20 at other places also, so easy to get and not that expensive. I must have 1000 pcs. here, not counting loaded ammo.

[pull the trigger]

Thanks guys, I was sure it was too high due to the month on there, I like the round and load it now. Thanks for all the responses, I really appreciate it.

[marlinman93]

Thanks guys, I was sure it was too high due to the month on there, I like the round and load it now. Thanks for all the responses, I really appreciate it.

.32-20 is one of my favorite cartridges and I like it in both handguns and rifles, but more so in a rifle! I have two rifles in .32-20, a #2 Rolling Block, and a #2 Ballard. It's good out much farther than people ever consider, and I've shot both of mine out to 450 yds. with great results on dingers.

[pull the trigger]

Theres a Ballard on GB in 32-20 also, but they want $1500 which also seems very high. I have a newer 1894 and an 1889 in 32-20, I dont know why I want a SS in it, but I do.

Nope, its a 32 long, seller probably doesnt know the difference.

[MrWolf]

Very few Hopkins & Allen rifles will get $1000, and that's not one of them. I'd say it's worth about half what they have on it.
As for .32-20 it is maybe tough to find loaded ammo, but extremely easy to find brass for if you reload. I just checked at Starline and it's in stock for $42 per bag of 50 pcs. And there's .32-20 at other places also, so easy to get and not that expensive. I must have 1000 pcs. here, not counting loaded ammo.

You might have looked at the wrong site as Starline has been out of stock and no backorder for awhile now. There is another thread on the 32-20 not being available. I know about Starline as I check it almost daily for the 32-20.
Ron

[marlinman93]

You might have looked at the wrong site as Starline has been out of stock and no backorder for awhile now. There is another thread on the 32-20 not being available. I know about Starline as I check it almost daily for the 32-20.
Ron

Guess so, as I went back again, and now it shows out of stock and no back order?
It's still all over Gunbroker, but people there are charging $1.50 a pc.

[marlinman93]

[QUOTE=Tall;5652247]He is making up stories about Gunbroker too - the best price on there is King of Ammo at $79 for 50 cases. Every other sale is above $2 each.



.32-20 $74.99 for 50.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1021993686

.32-20 for $84.95
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1021591476

.32-20 for $167.95
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1020899909

Excuse me for being off on the EXACT pricing. I'll try to be exact next time just for you.

[uscra112]

Just for the record - H&A sold "medium frame" rifles chambered .38-55, so I'd say that .32-20 is fine. Yes, the receivers were malleable iron, but so were "cast" Ballards and Stevens 44s. The biggest fault with them is that ridiculous flat blade extractor that runs tangent to the chamber on the left. If it doesn't fit the slot in the barrel perfectly, it will slip around the case rim and then you have to drive the case out from the muzzle. Then there's that silly "set trigger" adjuster, and of course the taper pin barrel retainer. I don't much like that rebounding hammer feature either. As you might guess, I had a short romance with a couple of them, but it's been over for a good many years. The only one I still have together is a .22 that I bought from a GB auction, a real good fitting-up job with a liner in the barrel, done by some unknown but talented smith. I paid about $300 as I recall. This one is wildly overpriced.

n.b. A Stevens 44 is perfectly adequate for the .32-20 if you don't shoot the "high speed" loads too often. It wasn't a common chambering, but they do come up for sale every now and then.

[MrWolf]

Is being rude just your nature?

.32-20 $74.99 for 50.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1021993686

.32-20 for $84.95
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1021591476

.32-20 for $167.95
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1020899909

Excuse me for being off on the EXACT pricing. I'll try to be exact next time just for you.

The site has an ignore list should you wish to use it. Per the FAQ's:.

Through your User Control Panel: User CP, Settings & Options, (under Account Settings) Edit Ignore List. Then, type their name into the empty text box and click 'Okay'.

[Bent Ramrod]

The “strength of the H&A falling block” episode that has stuck with me was the thread on the old Shooter’s site where the poster found a H&A 922 with typical shot-out bore, relined it with a 0.224” liner and chambered it for the .22 RF Magnum.

After a quite detailed description of the process, getting the tightest headspace and closest fitting for the most effective extraction, etc, which went on for many posts over the course of months, the rifle was ready to test fire. I was fully in sympathy with this protracted saga since all of my home gunsmithing projects go on like a life sentence as well. But the time had finally come!

It took precisely 9 shots (IIRC) to compress the breechblock and/or the receiver shoulders enough so the shell rims started bursting when the trigger was pulled. And this rifle was a “real” falling block design that one would think could take the pressure.

So I wouldn’t doubt you could damage a midsize H&A in .32-20 by trying “Hi-Speed” loads in it, however strong it looked. I have three of them: a .38-55 shotgun, a .32 RF/CF that I lined to .22 LR and another .32 RF/CF I haven’t done anything with so far. Loads for the shotgun are mild; any attempts to Magnumize would just get me blown patterns anyway, and the .22 has, of course, held up as well. The nice thing about them is the conversion to RF or CF is done by drilling an extra hole in the link in the right spot. No bushing or firing pin modification needed.

Collector interest in H&A rifles isn’t there to the extent it is for Stevens, Remington or Winchester, and until that happens, any notion that one has made his fortune by finding a specimen is fantasy. Their greatest exponent was the late, great Charles Carder, who wrote a monograph on the rifles and one on the shotguns, as well as many articles in magazines. I think both books are out of print, but the rifle one explains a lot of the variations in the parts and the fortunes of the various manufacturers over the years. For OCD people like me, who accumulate the rarely-found parts but find they don’t always fit together the way they should, it was quite illuminating. I sent a letter once to James Grant, asking him if he had any parts for the midsize frame I’d found at a gun show. He replied that parts were like hen’s teeth, and he had a midsize frame himself that needed them, too. If I found any I couldn’t use myself, please let him know. So the search goes on.

[uscra112]

I bought a copy of Charlie Carder's booklet from the man himself, at a gunshow in (I think) Lima. Ohiio, many moons ago. It's even autographed.

Just doing a rough calculation of breech thrust for the .22 Magnum leaves me wondering about the veracity of that 922 story. Assuming 23kpsi, it's 10% less than the .32 S&W Long, which the internet alleges has been successful.

The rim bursting might have been exacerbated by that rebounding hammer. It doesn't support the firing pin after the blow is struck, enabling the pressure to bulge the primer back into the breechblock. My 932 Long Colt CF was doing that until I massaged the firing pin and its' retainer so that the pin was supported absolutely flush with the breech face. That ought not to be a problem with the rimfire magnum, but I wouldn't rule it out.

[Ajohns]

I have maybe 5 of them, some for parts. All in the 932 size action. One is a 938 (also the same size as 932), in 38 S&W.
Some have the 9oclock blade extractor as said, a couple (the 938) have a 6oclock more common style extractor.
The small frame is a neat little design, so are the other two larger ones. I did ream a 32rf model to 32 S&W Long, and used some lighter handloads in it. But the bore was pretty bad even after extensive cleaning. It didn't shoot that well.
The 938 so far does alright, but I haven't slugged the bore either.
This one in question is a bit high for price I'd say, but loads for it in reason being medium frame would be fun. You never know? One might come up again some day.

[RustyReel]

Thread hijack, sorry.

I picked up an H&A shotgun that is missing the breech block and possibly the extractor and not sure what else. Anyone have an exploded view of one of these so I can see what parts I actually need?? The one I have has the removable barrel (haven't been able to get it off yet) and the last patent date is 1888.

I've seen pics of these things converted to "custom" rifles but I would just like to pop off a few black powder shotshells in it,,,,if the needed parts don't cost and arm and a leg.

Thanks!

[uscra112]

DeHaas had one of the medium frame rifles, but you may have the "large frame" that has "cheeks" on the side for the wider 12 gage breechblock. Try posting a photo so we can see.

[RustyReel]

It does have the cheeks. Haven't done anything to it other than cleaning off the barrel markings. As you can see, missing some parts.