Powder Question

[405grain]

I use 2400 in a couple of my cast bullet rifle cartridges. 2400 is the powder that works best in my 6.5x55 Mauser, but lately it's been hard to find. Looking online for a substitute I see where some people are saying that Ramshot Enforcer is very similar to 2400, and nearly the same loading data can be used. Also,( according to the internet), AA 4100 and Ramshot Enforcer are the same powder, just with different labels. All three of these powders are made for mid to heavy loads in magnum pistols, but I was wondering if any of you guys have some experience shooting either Enforcer or 4100 in cast rifle loads?

[TribunusSanGeorgii]

Tag for answers

[Dom]

IMR-4831, Ramshot Hunter & Accurate 3100, all very similar, are good powders for the 6.5x55. I know this because I use them in my 6.5x55.

[justindad]

Ramshot will not confirm Enforcer and 4100 are the same. Some load data suggests they are the same, but I’m not sure they are completely identical.

[waco]

Powder Valley has 8 powders of 2400 in stock right now.

[P Flados]

Quickload can be very helpful in trying to find near duplicate type loads.

It is not helpful that you provided next to nothing for the details of your actual application.

I grabbed a random bullet, guessed at a 24" barrel and a 1700 fps desired velocity.

The info below indicates that Enforcer and 4100 are not the same. However, either is probably a good choice for using in lieu of 2400. If you can find them, AA#9 or SW Heavy Pistol will come closer to duplicating your 2400 load.

Cartridge          : 6.5 x 55 Swedish
Bullet             : .264, 150, LYM LRN GC 266673
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.150 inch = 80.01 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon HS-6                        30.4     15.4     1.00    1700   100.0    29517    3644   1.763
Alliant 2400                        32.0     15.6     1.01    1700   100.0    20574    4276   2.038
Accurate TCM                        30.5     16.2     1.05    1700   100.0    22328    4068   1.962
Accurate No.9                       30.0     16.3     1.06    1700   100.0    21803    4128   1.985
Shooters World Heavy Pistol         29.7     16.3     1.06    1700   100.0    21803    4128   1.985
Ramshot Enforcer                    32.1     16.8     1.09    1700   100.0    20711    4291   2.054
Vihtavuori N110 *C                  39.0     17.0     1.10    1700   100.0    20226    4364   2.084
Accurate 5744                       35.4     17.4     1.13    1700    99.5    17562    5120   2.159
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle        36.2     17.4     1.13    1700    99.5    17562    5120   2.159
Accurate 4100                       33.2     17.6     1.14    1700   100.0    19936    4392   2.077
IMR 4227                            39.4     18.5     1.20    1700   100.0    17772    4950   2.160
Hodgdon H4227                       39.6     18.6     1.20    1700   100.0    17542    4972   2.182

[405grain]

P Flados: Sorry for my oversight. Your data comes close to nailing it. I'm shooting the Lyman # 266673 with 16 grains of 2400. Yes, 8 pound jugs of 2400 are available at Powder Valley for $339.99, but an 8 pound jug of AA 4100 from the same site is $219.99 ($120 less). Ramshot Enforcer is only available at Powder valley in 1 and 4 pound sizes (4 pounds for $127.99), and even if you double that to get 8 pounds that would be $255.98 ($84.01 less than 2400) I like 2400, but if I can get similar performance at a lower price why not get the less expensive powder. I just wanted to know if anyone else was trying these powders before I bought a jug.

[muskeg13]

Reloader 7 works good in my 6.5x55s, but is a little slower burning than 2400. It fills the cases enough that I don't use any filler.

[P Flados]

With better understanding of the desired performance, I went back and set 1730 fps as the target speed.

I found that 18.1 gr of 4100 is needed to get the same velocity as 16 gr of 2400. Using more powder per round reduces the savings just a little.

Your load has lots of room with respect to pressure. If you were to go just slightly faster than 2400, you would get a charge reduction.

AA7 is still pretty close to 2400 but only needs 15.8 gr for the same calculated velocity. AA7 cost per jug is a little higher at PV, but cost per round would be less than 4100 due to the lower charge.

Best cost per round will typically be found at the faster end of the spectrum of powders that will do the job. However, chamber pressures will go up (but muzzle pressures will go down). I am not sure how fast you would be willing to try. In the good old days, Red Dot was usually at or near the top when looking for "lowest cost" cast bullet powders. In these times, Nitro 100 will give you nearly the same performance as Red Dot at a much lower cost.

Cartridge          : 6.5 x 55 Swedish
Bullet             : .264, 150, LYM LRN GC 266673
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.150 inch = 80.01 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Accurate Nitro 100                  49.8     13.3     0.86    1730   100.0    36908    3665   1.619
Alliant RED DOT                     54.1     13.8     0.90    1730   100.0    37972    3628   1.602
Shooters World Ultimate Pistol      27.5     13.9     0.90    1730   100.0    34108    3698   1.667
Shooters World Clean Shot           32.5     14.0     0.91    1730   100.0    37056    3577   1.623
Accurate No.2                       41.5     14.1     0.91    1730   100.0    34479    3631   1.665
Hodgdon Universal                   43.6     14.4     0.93    1730   100.0    35913    3654   1.640
Shooters World Auto Pistol          27.6     14.6     0.95    1730   100.0    29386    3842   1.754
Accurate No.5                       27.6     14.6     0.95    1730   100.0    29398    3842   1.753
Ramshot Silhouette                  34.6     15.4     1.00    1730   100.0    33290    3709   1.683
Accurate No.7                       28.6     15.8     1.03    1730   100.0    24769    4079   1.885
Shooters World Major Pistol         28.6     15.8     1.03    1730   100.0    24769    4079   1.885
Hodgdon Longshot                    30.6     15.8     1.02    1730   100.0    31721    3734   1.712
Hodgdon HS-6                        31.4     15.9     1.03    1730   100.0    31023    3753   1.725
Ramshot True Blue                   30.4     15.9     1.03    1730   100.0    31850    3726   1.709
Alliant 2400                        32.9     16.0     1.04    1730   100.0    21637    4378   1.990
Accurate TCM                        31.4     16.6     1.08    1730   100.0    23522    4174   1.915
Shooters World Heavy Pistol         30.6     16.8     1.09    1730   100.0    22969    4233   1.937
Accurate No.9                       30.9     16.8     1.09    1730   100.0    22969    4233   1.937
Ramshot Enforcer                    33.0     17.3     1.12    1730   100.0    21821    4395   2.003
Accurate 4100                       34.1     18.1     1.17    1730   100.0    20992    4492   2.026

Here is a QL table that will give the info needed to do a more complete cost per round evaluation.

[405grain]

P Flados: Thank you. this information was very helpful.

[1Papalote]

Post 1 says unable to find
Post 7 says it's a cost issue.

I have the same conundrum with IMR4064. IMR and Alliant are price and availability problematic, causing us to seek viable alternatives. Been using 4064 for 40 years but with prices 30% higher than a suitable substitute, it demands a look.
I'm hoping to wait this out some and hopefully see pricing corrections.
Could we guess that IMR and Alliant powders are preferred by commercial ammunition producers causing the late arrivals to a hungry market?

[shooting on a shoestring]

Consider ignition.
It’s not just the charge weight (and cost) of 2400 vs 4100 or AA#7, but 2400 is an extruded powder which ignites easier than the ball powders meaning it is less position sensitive. This difference is magnified when the small powder charges have lots of room to roam in large rifle cases. If the powder charge is confined as in a full or nearly full case, the ignition difference is much less. But at 50% or less of case fill, the ball powders will give larger velocity spreads than 2400.

Consider that $100 difference in cost per 8 pound jug is big now…..but amortized over the lifetime of the 8 pound jug, probably not an issue. In other words, spending the extra $100 hurts today, but a year from now you won’t notice you’re $100 short. But, if a year from now you’re still fighting velocity swings with the cheaper powder, you’ll have given up the satisfaction of your small groups for saving a few pennies per shot. Not a wise use of cost savings in my view.

[243winxb]

8# available now. https://ammoseek.com/reloading/powder/Alliant?ikw=2400

Ammoseek.com

[405grain]

I'm going to give AA4100 a try. On paper the performance looks good: 18.1 grains of 4100 vs 16 grains of 2400 with similar velocity and pressure. A pound of 2400 costs $18 more than a pound of 4100. Even with the slightly larger charge weight the 4100 is still cheaper than 2400: 18 grains of 4100 = 8 cents a shot, while 16 grains of 2400 = 11 cents a shot. But that's not the main consideration. For months on end 2400 was sold out. I don't recall seeing 4100 sold out.

I'm going to have to shoot the 6.5x55 rounds that I've already got loaded before I can test out the 4100, but once I do I'll post up the results here. (could be a zombie thread by then)

[Tall]

Powder Valley has 8 powders of 2400 in stock right now.

2400 is in stock just about everywhere.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Powder/products/719/

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I use 4227 in many places that 2400 is commonly used, handgun, light rifle loads - 30-30 308 Win plus the 22 Hornet and 218 Bee.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Consider ignition.
It’s not just the charge weight (and cost) of 2400 vs 4100 or AA#7, but 2400 is an extruded powder which ignites easier than the ball powders ..., the ball powders will give larger velocity spreads than 2400.

Great comment.

And it is not just rifle related either, where very low charge / volume ratios exist.
I have been searching for GOOD (2.5 - 1.5" 50 yd 5 shot groups) from large pistol cartridges (475 & 500) w/ more sedate velocities (1100-1200 fps). Isn't always easy, and due to reduced peak pressures, this really points to ignition and combustion (pressure wave) stability.

Some of these older extruded & flake powders aren't still around just because they are old -- they are flexible for use case.

[405grain]

Question answered! I went to the range yesterday and tested 6.5x55 cast loads with 2400 and 4100 side by side. I was shooting a sporterized Turkish Mauser with a 6.5x55 barrel. Both loads were with Lyman #266673 bullets, PPU brass, and Winchester primers. The only difference in the loads was the powder. In one batch I was using 16.0 grains of 2400. In the other I was using 18.0 grains of Accurate 4100. Shooting at 50 yards I was printing several 10 shot groups that varied between 3/4" and 1.25" (with occasional flyers - I'm not perfect). After shooting 4 targets with each powder, as far as accuracy goes I did not see any difference in performance between the two powder groups.

I did notice some smoke stains on the necks of the 4100 rounds, so the pressure wasn't getting up enough to fully seal the necks. I think I'll try increasing the powder charge in .5 grain increments to see if a little more pressure will expand the necks better. A disclaimer: my sporter barrel has a slower twist rate, and shorter throat than a Swedish military barrel, so results may differ if you're shooting a 38 or 96 Swed. I had no ignition problems with the 4100 powder. This particular powder flows and meters better than any powder that I've ever used. Your mileage may vary, but it looks like I'll be switching to 4100.

[Latheman]

Forgive my ignorance. But would h110 also be good for this application?

[Kosh75287]

I've used A LOT of Alliant Promo (Red Dot, without the dots) in lower velocity cast bullet rifle loads. C.E. Harris nailed it pretty well when he observed that 13.5/Red Dot/150 gr. cast works very nicely in rifle rounds with internal capacities equal to or greater than the .30-30 Winchester. I think he reported that velocities in the 1500-1800 f/s range could be expected.