Range for Hangun Load Development?

[billmc2]

I'm about to start working on my first cast 9mm load. I have a new 9mm pistol that I am going to use for this. Powder coating the bullets. The pistol has a 3.85" barrel. It has polygonal rifling. I am planning to size the bullets at 0.357", following previous recommendations to allow the barrel to "size" the bullets.

At what range (distance) do you guys use when developing a handgun load?

[BD]

I start at 10 yards through the crony. Then 25 yards off a rest. Then if it's not a pocket pistol I'll shoot it at a larger target at 50 and 100 yards just to see if the boolits remain stabilized. I've had some 44 mag lots that were great out to 50 yards, but went wild before 100 yards.

[Kosh75287]

Since most encounters involving the use of a defensive pistol are at quite short ranges, I think I'd start at 25-30 feet. Obviously, you'd like the load to demonstrate usable accuracy well past that, but that's where I'd start.
Once you get the cast/pc-d bullets and polygonal rifling to "work and play well together", you will probably obtain far better accuracy than you can employ under pressure (at least I've always done so). The average adult male upper torso measures roughly 12" across or more. I would think that if you can keep 9 of 10 rounds in a 6" circle at 50 yards from a rest, you have more than enough accuracy for any mission to which a full-sized defensive pistol can be reasonably applied.

Choice of propellant can also influence accuracy. What type do you plan to use?

[billmc2]

Choice of propellant can also influence accuracy. What type do you plan to use?

I'm glad you brought that up, I meant to ask but forgot to. With multiple powders available, I'm not sure how to make a choice. I'm using a 135 gr Ranch Dog bullet. As an example Hodgdon's site gives multiple choices. https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/rel...c=true&type=53
Of those they list, I have Acc 5, Acc 7, CFE Pistol, Titegroup, and Win 244. I was thinking of starting with Win 244 only because I haven't used it much. Acc 5 is probably the powder I use most often.

[FergusonTO35]

For me, I like to be within palm of the hand groups at 20 yards for any gun that is Glock 42/J frame size or larger. For the true pocket rockets, 7-10 yards.

[Kosh75287]

Of the propellants you mention, I've had best results in 9mm with AA#5. I have not used W244, but it looks like it might be worth a look. For projectiles over 124 gr. in weight, I've had best results with Alliant Unique, Alliant BE-86, and Alliant Herco. The latter two are fairly similar to AA#5 in burning behavior, and tend to give best performance when pushed hard.

[contender1]

First off,, I suggest you determine what purpose the gun/ammo combo will be used for. Self defense ammo is much different than hunting ammo which is different from match grade ammo for competition.

Most guns can shoot very small groups at very close distances, if the shooter can do it & the ammo is carefully assembled.

Since I ask a lot from my handguns,, I tend to start my accuracy testing at 25 yds. That way,, if I find a really good load at that distance,, then I know it'll be REAL good at closer distances,, and if I need it for longer distance targets,, then I can step up distance & see how it performs.

A 3"-5" group at 10 ft will usually be all over the paper at 25 yds. But a nice small tight group at 10 ft, may or may not be accurate out further.

Just my humble thoughts to add to things here.

[dverna]

IMO cast bullets in a 9mm are for cheap practice. It is foolish to use cast bullets for self defence.

Work up a load for your gun with XTP’s or Gold Dots your gun likes. Then find a cast bullet load that shoots to the same POI.

25 yards is more than adequate for most SD situations.

[billmc2]

I don't shoot well enough to compete. I carry factory ammo for defense against people (if the situation arose, it might be used as defense against critters; I live out in the woods). If I'll be hunting I'll use a rifle. So, at this time, my plans for this is to learn the process and then have ammo to work on marksmanship. After that, who knows.

[lotech]

25 yards from a rest for all handguns, even the small ones.

[BD]

Even if the intended use is within 10 feet, I still like to know what the results might be should I ever feel the need to reach out a little farther. In my mind, loads that can't group at 25 yards are not good loads. Projectiles that don't remain stable at 50 yards also indicate poor loads.

[1006]

With one exception, all of those powders will perform about the same.

Accurate #7 is not designed for short barrel target loads, and it is a very dirty powder. I use it in a 9mm carbine, and have used it with good results in “off the charts-HOT” 9mm.

[littlejack]

I started off with the powders I had that would work in my 9mm's. First I used Herco to start. It performed well, but it did not measure the small charge weights consistantly. I switched to the HP-38 powder. Although it measured fine, it maxed out pressure wise to soon. I did some investigating on usable powders available. I decided on CFE Pistol. It's velocity to pressure looked really good. It performed very well. Clean burning, powder weights were consistant, and very economical. So, that would be my choice of the powders you listed.

[Tall]

I'm about to start working on my first cast 9mm load. I have a new 9mm pistol that I am going to use for this. Powder coating the bullets. The pistol has a 3.85" barrel. It has polygonal rifling. I am planning to size the bullets at 0.357", following previous recommendations to allow the barrel to "size" the bullets.

At what range (distance) do you guys use when developing a handgun load?

I would say with a 9mm and a 3.85" barrel you need to concentrate on results at around 15 yards. Anything more is crazy talk. It's a personal defense handgun. For personal defense you would only want to use a commercially loaded round. Any handload would cause jail time for you and a possible civil judgement too. Your handloads should mimic the commercial rounds as closely as possible.

[sigep1764]

Wow. I guess I need work. I test and practice at 30ft/10yards.

[billmc2]

Although it measured fine, it maxed out pressure wise to soon. I did some investigating on usable powders available. I decided on CFE Pistol. It's velocity to pressure looked really good.

Its this kind of information that I know nothing about; something I'm hoping to learn. How did you determine the pressure hit max to soon? Could I ask what's involved with your investigation? How/where do I get information on velocity to pressure?

I only started loading a couple of years ago, in the middle of this latest drought. It was easy then for me to decide on which powder to use. I made a list of powders the book said could be used and matched that to what I could buy. Now its more complicated for me because the list that works and the powders available is greater. I don't know how to narrow it down.

[littlejack]

After trying the first two powders I mentioned, I started looking at other reloading data and powders reccomended. I have a Hodgdon 2021 Annual Manual. This manual is in magazine form. I thumbed through to 9mm, and picked out a bullet closest to the style and weight of what I was going to test. (This is a Hodgdon manual, with only Hodgdon powders listed.) With the 124 gr. LCN bullet, the HP-38 has a max powder charge of 4.4 grains for a velocity of 1086 fps, and a pressure of 31,200 CUP.
The Hodgdon CFE powder, has a max load of 5.0 grains for a velocity of 1156 PSI. You could also drop back to the starting load with CFE Pistol, and a velocity of 1041 fps (which is almost the maximum velocity for the max load with HP-38) at 27,200 PSI. Notice I listed the pressures in (PSI = pounds per square inch) or, (CUP = copper units of pressure). The CUP, is the older method of measuring pressure. The PSI, is the newer electronic way of measuring pressure. This information, and how it's done can be found on the net.
So for me, the CFE Pistol is more versatile than the HP-38. As for the investigation, pick up a couple newer reloading manuals that have listing for the latest powders. The Hodgdon is very good, as is the 50th Lyman manual as well. If you can thumb through some of the different manuals on display, you'll be able to pick out the ones that have pressure listing.

[billmc2]

Ok, I think I'm starting to understand. You were looking at the amount of pressure listed for each powder and the associated velocity for that load. I hope I can say this correctly, with a higher velocity for a given amount of powder, you are visualizing a type of pressure curve. CFE has a velocity at almost the same as HP-38 but does it at a lower pressure. With a similar pressure it has a higher velocity.

I have several load manuals that list the pressures, including the Lyman manual you mention. I've never thought about looking at them in this way before. Thank You for that.

I guess what I'll do is load a few rounds with a couple of the powders and shoot over the chrony and see where they fall when compared to what the book says and go from there.

[Bigslug]

Handguns are typically capable of delivering far better mechanical accuracy than their flesh-and-blood operators can squeeze out of them. Unless it's for a hunting revolver, NRA Bullseye matches, going to do double duty in a carbine, or some other application that might require real distances, my attitude is that life is too short to go full accuracy nerd on defensive handguns. I go for semi-tight chrono numbers at a speed that isn't off the reservation. If it consistently busts a large tomato can (@ 4"-5") at 25 yards, it's in reality probably about a 2" load at that range, and I don't see a need to chase the dragon any further.

Whatever distance you choose, the trick I've found with handguns is to shoot larger group samples than one would with a benched rifle to better identify the more significant factor of human error. A tight five shot group with a flyer might have you thinking about re-working the load, but a tight 10-20 shot group with two or three flyers will more clearly point out the division between a good load and bouts of rectal/cranial inversion on the part of the operator.

EDIT TO ADD: Given that just about ANY carefully assembled handgun load will outshoot a non-benched operator, I would look at the experimental loads with a more critical eye to reliable function and cleanliness (which equates to CONTINUED reliable function).

[littlejack]

^^^^^^
What big slug said.
I think I understand your explanation of your understanding of what I posted. Just remember, if you are chronographing loads, with a certain powder, and the chrono is reading velocities higher than published, you could very well be over the maximum load for that powder. Back off! As careful as we try to be; "The only thing absolute in reloading is, nothing is absolute. Read your reloading manuals. Fill your mental archives with information readily available to you. Use you search function. There's a endless amount of information.
Regarding accuracy and tight groups. It's all relative. Back in my hay day, 60, 50, and even 40 years ago, I could shoot a penny off the top of a fence post at 25 yards with my .22 Remington bolt action and iron sights. Now, ot would be best for me to save my ammunition. There comes a time when one has to come to the conclusion that, that's good enough. I have come to that conclusion. But my "good enough" is deadly for self defense.