357 mag lever gun loads

[30calflash]

Running a little late but I want to try some jacketed loads for a short range hunting load in my 1894 Marlin.

Prompted by a 357 handgun thread, what are your go to or good in the field bullets for deer hunting? I've a stash of 158 gr Remington JSP's that were a bulk buy when they were available.

I'm thinking the JSP won't open quickly or be overly destructive as a hollow point would be, at carbine velocities.

[Froogal]

Somewhere in my collection of STUFF, I have one of those .357 jacketed soft points that was fired at a steel target. It mushroomed a bunch, kind of like it was made of pure lead.

[rockrat]

Should work well. I have some of the 180jhp Rem. Slugs I load over 300-mp.

[mnewcomb59]

The end-all load for the 357 rifle is a 158 with Lil' Gun. Nothing comes close in down range power and nothing shoots flatter to 200 yards. Brian Pearce has a few articles where he shoots 19 gr Lil' Gun with various 158 gr bullets and they all break 2000 fps.

For your bullet choice, the 158 JSP are relatively shallow penetrators above 1700 fps impact velocity. A better bullet is the Speer Plinker, which is a bonded JSP. They also have a Plinker that has a very shallow HP that is also bonded. Both of these bullets will penetrate 5 jugs at 1900 fps, while the Remington cup and core only penetrates 3 jugs.

An even better bullet choice is the NOE 154-WFN which casts 158 gr in 12 BHN alloy. The cast bullet will break 2000 fps at 18.3 gr Lil' Gun and I load them up with 2-2-96 air cooled AND water dropped. The water-dropped-after-powder-coat bullets are a few points harder and penetrate great at high velocity and mushroom to 63 cal. I use those for deer driving and ambush hunting from stands where shots are close. The same bullet air cooled will mushroom out to about 150 yards but at ranges less than 50 yards it mushrooms really wide and only penetrates 3 jugs.

158 gr at 2030 fps with .17 BC and a 135 yard zero is 1.8" high at 100 yards, 1.3" low at 150. Retained velocity and energy at 150 is 1428 fps and 715 fpe. 150 yards still has the energy of a 6" revolver at the muzzle and the bullet still mushrooms as expected. 200 yard hits are easy with 8.7" drop and 1272 fps remaining - equal to a 4" revolver at the muzzle.

[Sgt H]

I have not tried Lil'gun for 357 carbine loads but the velocities obtained seem impressive. A load I have used for years and found to be very accurate in revolvers and carbines is 14.5 grains of 2400 under a 158 grain jacketed bullet. About 1250fps from a 4" revolver and 1650 from my 1894 Marlin. Killed a few hogs and coyotes with this load with the Marlin loaded with 158xtp's. For deer or bigger game I use one of my 45-70's or a 30-06 depending on expected ranges. That little Marlin sure is easy to carry though keeping up with the dogs while after hogs.

[mnewcomb59]

I have about 15 deer so far with 357 rifles. I have shot a few with a 135 Ranch Dog at 2000+ fps and a few with a 158 at 1750 or 1800, but probably a dozen have been with Lil' Gun and 158s.

I shoot 2400 for revolver loads, Lil' Gun for rifles, and 38 +p out of both rifle and pistol. In a 6" revolver, Lil' Gun will shoot a 158 at 1550 fps but it is hard on forcing cones with all the coatings that slow the initial burn on the flattened ball shape of Lil' Gun. I bet a lot of the powder is solid (and hot!) as is passes through the forcing cone.

All ball and flattened ball powders have burn retardants, otherwise ball powder would have more and more surface area compared to its volume as it burns, making it burn faster and faster as the outside of the kernel gets burned up. When you have coatings on the powder, it will allow it to burn slow at first, then after the coating is gone the powder's surface area to volume ratio changes to a faster burning shape, allowing it to spike the pressure back up again close to the initial max pressure after the bullet goes down the barrel a few inches.

357 and Lil' Gun are a match made in heaven because it will barely get to 25k PSI, but it will hold close to 20k PSI until 6" down the barrel. 2400, for example, reaches 35-40k PSI but it is down to 10k PSI by the time the bullet is 6 inches down the barrel. 357 lever actions have funneled chambers and they bulge the brass horribly with max pressure loads. A 2000 fps load of Lil' Gun barely breaks 25k PSI and you can reload the brass at least 10 times.

[Shawlerbrook]

Great information. Thank you Newcomb.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=mnewcomb59;5639246]The end-all load for the 357 rifle is a 158 with Lil' Gun. Nothing comes close in down range power and nothing shoots flatter to 200 yards. Brian Pearce has a few articles where he shoots 19 gr Lil' Gun with various 158 gr bullets and they all break 2000 fps.

whats the pressure in those loads ? its almost a 30/30 in a case only about half size ---gotta be getting up there?

......

[imashooter2]

Running a little late but I want to try some jacketed loads for a short range hunting load in my 1894 Marlin.

Prompted by a 357 handgun thread, what are your go to or good in the field bullets for deer hunting? I've a stash of 158 gr Remington JSP's that were a bulk buy when they were available.

I'm thinking the JSP won't open quickly or be overly destructive as a hollow point would be, at carbine velocities.

There was a fellow over on the Marlin Owners board that did depredation hunting for deer and his bullet of choice was the Remington 158 grain JSP. He posted pictures of some recovered bullets and the terminal performance showed beautiful perfect mushrooms with great weight retention. As I recall he drove them with full loads of H110. I have never personally hunted with that combination but that gentleman over on MO shot a LOT of deer with his 1894.

[Sudsy]

How well might Lil Gun work for higher end 38 +P loads ?

[smkummer]

Given the choice, and if bullets we not already acquired, myself I would go with the heavier 180 grain hoping for complete penetration and if needed more pronounced blood trail if needed. I’ve shot deer with 30-30, 30-06, 44 mag. and 243 but not .357 yet. Odd, the best 1 shot dead right there was the 243 100 grain SP. And it was the second biggest buck behind a mule dear.

[mnewcomb59]

Jacketed 180s shoot 300 fps slower than jacketed 158 grain bullets. They have less power at all ranges, they blow in the wind more and they have more drop at any given range.

In a 6 inch revolver 180s and 158s are close in power and trajectory, but in the long barrel the 158 is so much more powerful and flatter shooting that it is clearly the optimum load. 180 is past the edge where its reduction of powder capacity outweighs its additional bullet weight. Add more bullet weight after 158 gr and power goes down and down and down with every heavier bullet. To take the argument to ad absurdum - a 250 grain bullet would leave room for about 5 grains of gun powder. Gun powder is your power. Would you rather have 5 grains or 18 grains of power? We aren't talking about an overbore cartridge- we are talking about a cartridge that will burn 100% of its powder before it leaves the barrel. In a 30-06 if you add 50 grains of bullet weight, you can still get your 50-60 grains of powder (power) in the case. You just have to change powders. In a small straight wall you don't have that luxury

The only 158 grain bullets I have recovered have been from Texas heart shots and one time where I shot every vertebrate in a line from below the chin to the top of the shoulder blades. I have had several Texas heart shots that exited deer with a 158 at 2000 fps that mushrooms to 63 cal with 100% weight retention. Want more penetration than that? Toughen the alloy so it "only" mushrooms to .55 cal and you gain another foot of penetration.

The one and only reason to run a 180 in the rifle is if you are sensitive to muzzle blast. 180s have less gun powder and therefore less noise. A hard 158 penetrates 8 jugs out of the rifle, equal to a 180 TTSX from a 300 Win Mag or 2 jugs deeper than a 250 grain Speer Hot Cor from a 35 Whelen (6 jugs). Anything over 5-6 jugs, or 24-30" ballistic gel is a WASTE and gives small wounds. Especially on deer.

If you need penetration, shoot a harder bullet. You wouldn't shoot a 220 grain out of a 30-30 at 1500 fps because it has much less trajectory, energy and no better penetration than a tough 170 at 2100 fps

[mnewcomb59]

[QUOTE=indian joe;5639863]

The end-all load for the 357 rifle is a 158 with Lil' Gun. Nothing comes close in down range power and nothing shoots flatter to 200 yards. Brian Pearce has a few articles where he shoots 19 gr Lil' Gun with various 158 gr bullets and they all break 2000 fps.

whats the pressure in those loads ? its almost a 30/30 in a case only about half size ---gotta be getting up there?

......

It is almost equal to a 30-30 because there is more square inches in the bore. No replacement for displacement. At the same pressure, there is 33% more surface area of the bullet base to act on. 357 will get 33% more power if both are shooting 19 grains of gun powder at 35k PSI. 30-30 has more powder though, so it makes up for the lack of square inches.

[FergusonTO35]

Those Remington slugs are really good, as are Hornady XTP flat points. I imagine the Lee 358-158-RF would be a dandy too. All of them shoot great out of my 1982 edition 1894.

[imashooter2]

Did a little searching and need to correct myself. The fellow on Marlin Owners was a poster named Jerry Lester and the recovered bullets I mentioned were Hornady FP-XTP. His preferred load was the Remington 158 grain JSP because they gave through and through penetration. If you do a Google search on “Jerry Lester site:marlinowners.com” you will get lots of hits including this one:

https://www.marlinowners.com/threads...hitetail.9929/

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=mnewcomb59;5639911]

It is almost equal to a 30-30 because there is more square inches in the bore. No replacement for displacement. At the same pressure, there is 33% more surface area of the bullet base to act on. 357 will get 33% more power if both are shooting 19 grains of gun powder at 35k PSI. 30-30 has more powder though, so it makes up for the lack of square inches.

always thought case capacity vs bore size was part of the pressure picture ?

[Photog]

You will need to test whatever boolits you get, as carbines GREATLY increase velocity in 38/357, over handgun velocities. I've had double the velocity in a carbine vice a 4" handgun. So, get a few of the boolits and shoot gel or water jugs to get an idea of the penetration. You might get overexpansion if the boolit was made for a lower velocity.

[FergusonTO35]

You will need to test whatever boolits you get, as carbines GREATLY increase velocity in 38/357, over handgun velocities. I've had double the velocity in a carbine vice a 4" handgun. So, get a few of the boolits and shoot gel or water jugs to get an idea of the penetration. You might get overexpansion if the boolit was made for a lower velocity.

This 100%! Big power jump with even standard .38's out of my carbines.

[Hickok]

Henry Big Boy steel with 20" barrel. Skinner peep sight and Skinner front patridge sight.

Arsenal molds .358-158-RF (looks like a copy of Ranch Dog's boolit) Gas-checked, PC sized to .358"

14 gr / 2400 1765FPS out of my rifle.

3 inch groups and under @ 100 yards from the bench when I do my part.

[FergusonTO35]

Anybody have any good carbine .357 loads with HS-6?