308W Lyman 311291 and Red Dot

[versa-06]

To answer your question; Yes, & to reduce muzzle blast, & recoil. & I don't have a thing against saving powder. An over-charge is an over-charge, no matter the burn rate of the powder. One can overcharge 4350 as easy as Red Dot. That is why I weigh & process every round one at a time no matter the powder used. I don't trust powder throwers for one reason, I use a Lot of bulky powders. Like 800x, SR-4759, & stick powders. -06

[openbook]

One follow-on thought: Ed Harris's article "'The Load' is 13 Grains of Red Dot" could be easy to misread. That article said that

"'The Load' of choice in most .30 and .303 calibers was 13 grains of Hercules Red Dot."

At that point it would be very easy to make the jump to using this load in .308. But Harris had further cautions:

"The case must be LARGER than the 30-40 Krag, and have a normal working pressure greater than 40,000 psi."

The .308 satisfies the second criterion, but NOT the first. The 30-40 Krag is a large case, only a tad smaller than its child the 30-06. In contrast, the .308 was designed explicitly as a short-action semi-automatic case and is substantially smaller than the 30-06 or, relevantly, the 30-40 Krag. The difference explains why Ed Harris's 13 grains is described in the mentioned article as a "starting" load, whereas the 12.5 grains that TurnipEater quoted from Lyman's 3rd Cast is a maximum load.

[TurnipEaterDown]

I never did understand why to use those fast powders in rifle cast loads. especially in caliber like 308 when there are so many powders that work real well from 4198, 4895, 8208 to blc and 2520 and so many others is it because you can be shooting using just a little bit of powder?

The obvious drawbacks of very fast powders in rifle cases under cast are: easy ability to double or even triple charge, low volume fill and position sensitivity to ignition consistency, and I am sure others will add some (if so inclined)
The advantages: flexibility w/ existing powder stores, easy ignition of fast powders, economy -- few pounds of BE, W231, 700x/800x, etc. go a long way, cleaner burn at lower Pressure / velocity, etc.

When I first read it years ago I was amazed to find how little difference in max velocity potential there was on jacketed bullets in a case like a 308 w/ a 150 gr between something like I4227 & I3031 -- 570 fps. While certainly a substantial difference, 4227 at 2260 fps is still good enough for much practice, is good getting a youth to use 'the big gun', and it does so at 57% of the powder. Am I saying that I have seen great accuracy in the particular application? No, I don't even own a 308, but it does illustrate why the choice for fast powders Can make sense in Some use cases.

The double checking the throw w/ the fastest powders is really important though, and while I have always used the method 405 grain mentions in post #9, I have also sometimes chosen to weigh charged cases as a double check. Yes, many bulk cases vary a few grains, and this method won't catch a high charge from things like the bridging / hang up of powder in the measure spindle mentioned, but it will certainly catch a double charge of 12 grains. Catching a scale setting boo boo of 22 rather than 12 grains would not happen though when All cases were loaded the same.

[quilbilly]

One of my 308's really likes 10.4 gr. of Red Dot with CB's but I always use an LED flashlight to look into the charged case to make sure there is no double charge before I seat a boolit.

[versa-06]

I usually use a marked wooden dowel to judge depth of charge.

[jaysouth]

One of my 308's really likes 10.4 gr. of Red Dot with CB's but I always use an LED flashlight to look into the charged case to make sure there is no double charge before I seat a boolit.

Good move!

[Iowa Fox]

Anymore when ever I set up the scale to weigh charges I have my wife double check me. My eyes aren't so good and my hands shake like crazy plus she doesn't mind helping me. I started having her double check me about 8 or 9 years ago after a good friend of mine ran into problems. Long story short he was just like me old didn't see so well and shakey. Come to find out he got the 5 grain weight one notch off so he was dropping 5 grains heavy. We were at a match 1000 miles from home. He had the same scale as me a old Redding with chrome plated beam with red markings.

[dverna]

You used "The Load" and hundreds of thousands of loads have proven that it is safe.

Any powder is going to cause an issue if is 10 gr more than the recipe.

You made an honest mistake. I nearly did the same thing once using a mechanical scale that I had accidently "bumped". I was lucky and caught the problem.

IMO the most "accident prone" way to reload is to use a single stage press, loading block, and weighed charges. When I do it, I use an electronic scale, verify it, and never use a loading block. The case is charged with powder and then the bullet seated. The case never leaves my hand once it is charged until the completed round and placed in the box. This eliminates double charging.

Glad it did not cause any harm to you or the gun.

[Anonym]

You used "The Load" and hundreds of thousands of loads have proven that it is safe.

Any powder is going to cause an issue if is 10 gr more than the recipe.

You made an honest mistake. I nearly did the same thing once using a mechanical scale that I had accidently "bumped". I was lucky and caught the problem.

IMO the most "accident prone" way to reload is to use a single stage press, loading block, and weighed charges. When I do it, I use an electronic scale, verify it, and never use a loading block. The case is charged with powder and then the bullet seated. The case never leaves my hand once it is charged until the completed round and placed in the box. This eliminates double charging.

Glad it did not cause any harm to you or the gun.

Dverna,

There was an earlier response stating that “load” was not intended for 308W due to case capacity. Are you using in 308W or a larger cartridge?

Yes, I was loading on a single stage press, one cartridge at a time after prepping the cases. I was only doing 5 rounds for testing purposes, so it was more than likely thinking the ticks on the main beam were increments of 5 instead of 10, or I bumped it a notch as well. I can’t honestly remember. I use an RCBS 1010 scale.

[quilbilly]

I also use a single stage press. When I started using small charges of fast burning powders like Red Dot, Bullseye, et.al. in large rifle cases, I started making my own dippers for specific loads. I made them by cutting off brass rifle cartridge cases and adding a twisted wire handle to the case. For instance, this morning I reloaded a few 357 max cartridges using a .93 cc dipper made from the bottom of a 6.5 Creedmore case. (who says a 6.5 CM isn't useful). By doing this, then looking into the 357 max case there will either be no charge or a double charge which is quite visible. For me this system is quite precise, safe, and avoids weighing every charge. The tedious part is making a precise dipper because it is rare to get it right the first, second, or third time.

[dverna]

Dverna,

There was an earlier response stating that “load” was not intended for 308W due to case capacity. Are you using in 308W or a larger cartridge?

Yes, I was loading on a single stage press, one cartridge at a time after prepping the cases. I was only doing 5 rounds for testing purposes, so it was more than likely thinking the ticks on the main beam were increments of 5 instead of 10, or I bumped it a notch as well. I can’t honestly remember. I use an RCBS 1010 scale.

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharri...The%20Load.htm

This will help you. It is a very good article written by a man who can be trusted.

Short story...your load is safe.

Lastly...do not beat yourself up. It is easy to bump the weights on a mechanical scale. Many people do not like electronic scales, but I have had good results from the RCBS Chargemaster. Not sure if a $300 unit is better than a $50 eBay offering but just my experience.

Quilbilly's post offers a good option...using a dipper. It is fast, cannot bridge, idiot proof, and accurate enough for most applications. The key is using it the same way every time, but muscle memory is your friend there. If you are anal, (I am not), make the dipper to throw about .3 gr less than you want and trickle to your desired charge. If you are trickling more than a few kernels of powder you know your scale is "off". Dippers are quite consistent.

[famdoc2892]

I️’ll have to admit I️ like the idea of one powder for multiple loads, presents its own challenge to the reloader. Admittedly not always the best powder for every job, but fun to see if you can tease “another one” out a particular firearm/boolit combo.