308W Lyman 311291 and Red Dot

[Anonym]

Good morning. I had an interesting thing happen to me last night while working up a load for my son. He bought a Savage M110 in 308 Winchester and thought it would be fun to shoot a cast bullet hunting this deer season. Most shots would be less than 100-yds, and I had a Lyman 311291 in the stables as well as a lot of Red Dot powder. After doing a lot of research and seeing several people using this combination, I loaded up a couple of rounds using 12-gr of powder and seating to the crimp groove with a bullet cast of #2 and sized to 0.311", checked, and lubed with Carnauba Blue. Cases were FL sized and trimmed, once-fired, with snug primer pockets and CCI LR Primers.

Seating any longer tended to get the front driving band into the throat and "stick" the bullet, so backing off to the crimp groove allowed the rounds to chamber easily. Nose of the boolit was 0.300" and driving bands were confirmed 0.311".

So last night we had 5 rounds that we were going to test out and see if we could get on paper. The first round loaded easily and shot as expected without much recoil. However, when he went to open the bolt, it was jammed and the bolt handle would not lift. I removed the action from the stock and also dropped the accu-trigger to verify the bolt lock was not damaged and engaged (which it was not). I probed the bolt head pin to ensure it was not broken and nothing was preventing the bolt from operating, and then proceeded to tap the bolt open and rearward.

In attempting to drive the bolt rearward, the rim of the cartridge sheared off and I was able to drive out the stuck case with a cleaning rod. The brass showed excessive pressure signs with a flattened primer and bulged brass around the bolt head. The extractor was damaged on removal, so I've had to order a replacement. I've never seen anything like this out of this rifle shooting factory ammunition. Any speculation on the cause? I'm going to disassemble the remaining rounds to try over, but this one has me baffled. Any help would be appreciated!

[Tatume]

I don't use Red Dot or Blue Dot because of stories like this one. I'm sure there are plenty of safe recipes for these powders, but they seem to be very unforgiving of departures from published load data.

[Ben]

That is a pretty stiff charge.

[popper]

30-06 shows 10gr max for 170 cast bullet.

[Ben]

Yes, it seems that 12.0 would be right there on the edge if not over.

[TurnipEaterDown]

In attempting to drive the bolt rearward, the rim of the cartridge sheared off and I was able to drive out the stuck case with a cleaning rod. The brass showed excessive pressure signs with a flattened primer and bulged brass around the bolt head. The extractor was damaged on removal, so I've had to order a replacement. I've never seen anything like this out of this rifle shooting factory ammunition. Any speculation on the cause?

These are indications of extreme over pressure. Always.

Page 185 of the 3rd edition Lyman Cast Bullet handbook does list 308 Win, #311291 bullet, Win 8 1/2 primer, with up to 12.5 gr Red Dot @ 39,900 CUP. But there are caveats that apply liberally to data like this, and the round you shot is obviously far over the pressure ceiling.

Maybe something like a 7 gr start charge and a Chronograph will get you going in the right direction after repair and thorough inspection of the receiver & bolt.

[Larry Gibson]

Sounds like a possible double charge or if the charge was thrown it may have bridged in the thrower causing a lighter chargee in one case and an over charge in that one. Suggest pulling the bullets in the remaining 3 cartridges and double checking/weighing the powder charges.

[lar45]

I would also use a pistol primer instead of the rifle primer.
Also, what was the loaded length and bullet weight?

[405grain]

Fast pistol powders can be unforgiving if overcharged. Even a small amount over the recommended load will really spike the pressure. Before I seat bullets on anything, rifle or pistol, I put the loading block under a light and look down inside every single case to make sure that there's the same amount of powder in all of the cases. Under charges or over charges will be immediately apparent. Bulky powders or ones with longer kernels might bridge, and this could cause one load to be too light and the next one way too strong. It doesn't matter, even with powders that flow like water I always check every cartridge, every time.

[Ben]

Considering the severity of the damage, this one looks like a double charge.

[Anonym]

Pulled the remaining rounds. Each load was thrown by hand and checked, but must have set it improperly as the charges read 22gr instead of 12. Luckily this is a good action and a relatively forgiving powder. Not a rookie, but obviously susceptible to rookie mistakes. Thanks everyone. Think I’ll avoid the Red Dot and stick with a more suitable powder.

[versa-06]

I don't think there's anything wrong with using Red Dot. It's my opinion that every charge with fast powder should be weighed & then boolit seated one at a time. I've been using fast powders for many years but I weigh every round then seat the boolit every time. Your mileage may vary. -06

[Anonym]

True. I did weigh every charge, I just weight them to the wrong amount. I have some IMR4198 that I have a decent quantity of. Think I’ll start at the (correct) minimum and see how that treats me. Thanks guys!

[gumbo333]

V 06 is right on, fast powders make great reduced velocity cast loads. He is also right on about weighing every single charge then seating the boolit before starting the next powder charge for the next case. Sure it takes longer, you need really good habits. Maybe that’s why God invented a radio. The rewards are worth it.

[txbirdman]

The method I use to load fast burning powders like Red Dot and Unique for cast is to use the proper Lee dipper to measure a charge slightly below the desired charge weight; put the charge on the scale; and trickle up to the desired load. I then immediately seat a bullet before repeating the process. Certainly not the only way but has worked for me.

[Mike H]

Pleasing to see the problem solved quickly and thanks to Anonym for his honesty and openness.

[Larry Gibson]

Pleasing to see the problem solved quickly and thanks to Anonym for his honesty and openness.

I'll second this^^^^^^

[lar45]

Quickload thinks the pressure could have been around 72kpsi with 22gns
12gns should be around 32k
10 - 24k

[Anonym]

I'll second this^^^^^^

Thanks guys. This is why this is one of my favorite sites and why I’m here. Good information and good people. No need to be ashamed of a mistake, and it’s there for us all to learn from. I’ll post results of the search for a new load once my new extractor arrives.

[farmbif]

I never did understand why to use those fast powders in rifle cast loads. especially tin caliber like 308 when there are so many powders that work real well from 4198, 4895, 8208 to blc and 2520 and so many others is it because you can be shooting using just a little bit of powder?