Model 94 30-30 at 100 Yards. How?

[LAH]

OP use a big bull. Makes it much easier.

[FergusonTO35]

Back before my cataract surgery I was in the position of not being able to use the iron sights at all. Reason was with barrels shorter than 26" I just couldn't see the front sight clear enough to focus on it. With enough lens to see the front sight clearly the target was totally gone. I began converting my shorter barreled rifles to "scout" configuration. I quickly learned the proper mounting of the scope was vitally important to proper use, especially for hunting. Here is the M94 Carbine I got for my 14th birthday. Yes, it has been refinished as it rattled around behind the seat of my stepfather's PU for many years before my brother gave it back to me. Mechanically it was in excellent condition but just had a lot of dings, dents and scratches on the exterior. I've put a post front sight and a Lyman receiver sight on it along with a Burris 1.5X scout scope in the Burris scout mount made for the M94. With 125, 130, 150 or 170 gr commercial jacketed it will still put 8 shots (magazine capacity + 1 up the spout) into close to 1 moa to 1 3/4 moa depending on the bullets used. My top end load with a 311041 over LeveRevolution runs 2200+ fps and will stay inside 2 moa all day long whether I'm using the scope or the receiver sight which I can now use again after the cataract surger gave me 20/20 vision in my right eye.

Really nice rifle and setup you got there!

[FergusonTO35]

Well, I'm going with scopes on all my .30-30's. Rifle season is only 16 days and no reason to limit myself on distance or lighting. Even a 20mm objective with low magnification offers me way more realistic capability than sights. Still using sights on my .22's, .357 carbines, and AR's though!

[FergusonTO35]

Got my Weaver side mount in and put it on the 94. Works great once you figure out how much to offset the crosshairs so that they are straight when the caps are tightened down. HORRIBLE design I think, no telling how many hours I've spent over the years trying to get crosshairs straight with that type of ring. Otherwise, it fits me well and hopefully I can try it out soon. I really like how the sights are still useable, given I can still shoot them fairly well out to 50 yards.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I am also an advocate for bigger targets for certain iron sights withe size of the front sight and distance to target both considered. Some of the optic fiber sights are quite big, needing 6-8 inch squares at 100 yards for me. I make my targets from red or green copy paper, cut into squares, rectangles, whatever shape you like and can line up on. Having a target you can hold on consistently, even an 8.5x8.5 inch square can give those 2-3" groups you are looking for. Blacking the rear sight along with front on opens can also help, glare free is important.

[FergusonTO35]

My thing is, it's quite difficult to see exactly where I'm aiming even with a big bull and six o'clock hold beyond about 50 yards. With a scope I can see what spot I'm aiming at and time the "wiggles" just right to hit it. With the side mount, I can still use sights for up close and personal shots.

'Nother thing. The rear sight dovetail on my rifle is leaning to the left quite a bit, whereas the front sight base is almost perfectly straight. I think there is enough meat on the right hand side to carefully file a new and straight dovetail into it. Does this sound doable?

[ulav8r]

My thing is, it's quite difficult to see exactly where I'm aiming even with a big bull and six o'clock hold beyond about 50 yards. With a scope I can see what spot I'm aiming at and time the "wiggles" just right to hit it. With the side mount, I can still use sights for up close and personal shots.

'Nother thing. The rear sight dovetail on my rifle is leaning to the left quite a bit, whereas the front sight base is almost perfectly straight. I think there is enough meat on the right hand side to carefully file a new and straight dovetail into it. Does this sound doable?

Not likely, as you lower the right side to get it horizontal, the dovetail will become loose. If you don't go too far you might be able to peen( if you forget the n, autocorrect will accept the 3 letter word) the right side to move the shoulders down for a tight fit. 3 possible solutions if that doesn't work: 1. tig weld the dovetail and then recut 2. cut a flat and fill the area and then cut a new dovetail 3. cut a round bottom base to cover the dovetail and put a different sight on that would require a higher front sight.

[FergusonTO35]

Thanks. I'm taking it to a gunsmith who thinks he can straighten it out on friday.

[Tripplebeards]

My avatar is from my 1970 336 in 35 rem. I use a lee collet factory crimp collet die for an even crimp. I also sized my boolits at .3595". My barrel slugs at .357. I also polished and lightened my trigger to around 3 pounds or a hair less. I definitely use an optic. Had a 10x scope on it when load testing. Shot a 3 shot group at 200 yards right after my avatar group was shot. It measured 2.1"! It's a shooter for sure. I also PC and GC my boolits and keep them all within ONE grain of each other. I also use Smokes clear PC. Goes on smooth and like glass. Only PC I will use for rifle boolits. I switched my optic out for 2-7 leupold after load testing. Smaller optic looks better and I don't shoot more than 75 yards 99% of the time hunting. More like 40 and under.

[FergusonTO35]

Awesome!

[gumbo333]

Back a gazillion years ago when I was much younger and starting to deer hunt, many older farmers used open sighted 30/30’s and a few 32 Specials. They sighted in with big targets, like a dinner napkin. Back then “ minute of deer” for those guys was a 4 or 5 inch group at a hundred yards, their limit. They all did well hunting in the timbers and shelter belts. I was amazed. And yes some wore glasses with coke bottle lenses. It worked for them. I started with a scoped bolt rifle, port side REM 788 in 6mm. I also wore glasses for about 65 yrs. Not now. Memories.

[FergusonTO35]

Back a gazillion years ago when I was much younger and starting to deer hunt, many older farmers used open sighted 30/30’s and a few 32 Specials. They sighted in with big targets, like a dinner napkin. Back then “ minute of deer” for those guys was a 4 or 5 inch group at a hundred yards, their limit. They all did well hunting in the timbers and shelter belts. I was amazed. And yes some wore glasses with coke bottle lenses. It worked for them. I started with a scoped bolt rifle, port side REM 788 in 6mm. I also wore glasses for about 65 yrs. Not now. Memories.

That's how alot of hunters still are around here. Thing is, I would say many of them don't talk about how many deer they wounded and couldn't find. I think we should respect our game enough to make sure that every shot has the best possible chance of being quickly lethal. Minute of paper plate at 100 yards is probably good enough most of the time, but I think you should strive for better if you can. Or, limit yourself to closer range. I'm not one of those nerds who thinks you need well below sub-MOA just for hunting, but I do think you should put serious thought into the topic. I have decided I won't take any shots over 50 yards with sights because I am honestly too inconsistent beyond that distance without a scope.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have commented on this problem several times on this forum. The problem that is experienced here is about indexing the sights on the target. Leverguns are generally 2-3" guns however that can be improved with "repeatable sight indexing on the target."

The operative word is "Repeatable." If you don't index your front sight on the exact same place on the target every time your groups will grow larger with every shot.

Using a flat top Front Sight like an XS Whiteline Sight and indexing it on the bottom Point of a Diamond shaped Target Spot is the most precise way to do this. an Aperture Rear Sight is recommended. (Lyman or Redfield preferred.)

Also you are not going to be able to see it that well at 100 yards so you'd drop down to 50 and then go to 100 when your Zero is fully defined. Using a 6" Black Diamond on a White background is the way to go. Then you can index the Front Sight directly under the bottom point on the target, and put the point as close to the center of the flat on the front sight as is possible for you, without covering any of the target itself.

Obviously this has to be done using a Steady Rest so that you can take all the movement of the gun out!

Now one last thing. You need to hard Focus on the Front Sight. That is all that matters. You can't switch back and forth from the target to the sight to the peep and expect to be able to do it like when you were 13 years old.

If you are having trouble focusing on the front sight you can change the size of the Aperture on your rear sight until it is in focus. That's why they make different size holes in them.

Here's a pic of my guns. I have shot a 5 shot group at 100 yards with the .45-70 that measured 1 3/4" by using this technique.

One more last thing: If you can't see or focus on your Front Sight that is 3-4 feet away you need to go get some new glasses or have your prescription up dated. I recommend progressives adn tell the Opto Doc you need to be able to focus at less than 1 foot.

Randy

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[FergusonTO35]

And therein lies the rub, I have alot of difficulty putting that front sight in the same place every time. For the time being I'm just going to stick with scopes on my centerfires for deer hunting.

[veeman]

Hard to aim at the same spot when the target keeps bouncing around, lol!

[HamGunner]

If the lever gun has a rear sight with a removable center insert, a "One Ragged Hole" peep can be inserted in it's place. Not as good as a receiver peep sight, but much, much better than the factory open top sights. A bright fiber optic front sight such as a "Fire Sight" in addition really helps as well.

That is the set up that I put on my 94 Winchesters about 10 years ago and I can now see to shoot even at almost 72 years young. In addition to the front fiber optic sight, I also leave on the front sight hood. I open up a couple of windows in the top of it with a dremel for extra light, but leave enough metal so the hood keeps it's protective function.

About five years ago I had a deer playing peek-a-boo with me at 50 yds. in the thick brush here in S. Missouri. All he presented me with was part of his head, so I let him have it right between the running lights with a Lyman 429215gc through my 94 Win. 44 mag. which had this sight set up on it. Without that Fire Sight and One Ragged Hole rear peep I would have had to pass on that shot.

A peep is very fast to use. Your brain automatically centers the front sight without a moment of thought. I also use the One Ragged Hole rear sight on my old Flat Top 44 mag. Blackhawk

[dtknowles]

Thanks, Jackpine, I think a sight change may be in order. I can shoot with decent accuracy out to 100 yards with the peep sights on my 03A3. The front on the 94 just completely covers any target at that range. I like the six o'clock hold option other than I run out of sight adjustment with my cast bullet loads. My jacketed loads hit higher, and I can probably make it work with those. The glasses thing, ya I am working through that now. Even so, the peeps on the 03A3 work for me so I think a sight change might help.

Just my observations fwtw. You target is too small for accuracy testing. A target that is almost completely covered by the front sight is perfect for accuracy testing as the sight picture should be the target showing as a ring around the bead of the front sight. An even better target would be a square that the front sight covers all but the corners of the target. When all you see is corners you are on target.
You cast bullet loads seem to be light. You should be able to duplicate factory ballistics with cast bullets w/gas check. You should be able to work up a load that has about the same point of impact (POI) as factory ammo.

For accuracy testing POI does not matter as long as you use a large target, meaning enough clean target paper so the bullet holes are on the paper. For accuracy testing the bullets don't have to be in the black they just need to be on the target so you can measure group size.

Peep/aperture sights are great if you need or prefer "iron" sights. Scopes are better for accuracy testing. I had a M94 that had a side mounted scope that let you still use the Iron Sights. That M94 was my first hunting rifle, I sold it and not sad. It would shoot 3" groups at 100 yards most times even with cast but never much better.

Tim

[FergusonTO35]

Spent some time with my Henry .45-70 single shot yesterday, it uses a barrel mounted folding leaf rear with a fiber optic front. I was reminded again about my 50 yard limitation. Out to 50 I can keep them within an inch or two and close to point of aim. Beyond 50 may as well hang it up. Some of the places I hunt you can't see anything beyond 30-40 yards, so the lightweight and compact little Henry slinging a big chunk of lead is a good choice.