Model 94 30-30 at 100 Yards. How?

[Griff]

I had to start wearing glasses to see at distance around 58 or so... Now at 73, even with glasses I can't see the front sight as well as then. Group size has suffered as a result. But, I still have my best results with tang peep and a Lyman 17A front with the flat post insert. I use this combo on a couple of Winchester 94s and my pistol caliber Low-Wall.

[Castaway]

6 o’clock hold and flat front sight. Next upgrade is a tang sight. Marble makes an excellent sight with windage adjustment as well as elevation. With the Marble, you get three different sized apertures to fit light conditions. Stay away from red or green front sights. The colored sights “bleed” around the edges and you can’t get a crisp sigh alignment with the bull

[Hick]

Lyman globe on the front and a peep on the back. Just line up the two holes and put the target in the center of the hole.

[WRideout]

You might also consider using a larger target. I once shot a high power rifle match (I am not really a competition shooter) and was surprised at the size of the1,000 yard target. However it is needed just to see what you are shooting at. It is possible with iron sights to hit the middle of a large target consistently, at great distance.

Wayne

[pietro]

Any suggestions on a source for a front sight light you suggest?

Thank,

Mike

Since the size/width of your front sight is blocking out your target finesse, I would respectfully suggest doing one of two things.

Swap out your existing front sight blade for a small bead (1/16") front sight (under $10)

or

Swap out your front sight blade for a bright, fiber-optic front sight (under $10).

FWIW, all aftermarket bead front sights, including fiber-optic sights, are available in two different beads sizes (1/16"-fine & 3/32"- coarse) from most makers.

The FO front sight beads also available in different colors (red, amber, green, etc, etc) for folks with different color perceptions, again from various makers.

You will most likely need to surf the various makers to get what suits your vision/needs.

Some FO dovetail front sight makers are: Williams Gun Sight Co, Marbles, Tru-Glo, Hi-Viz, & New England Custom Gun

.

[MarkP]

Use a reference point that is repeatable such as staple a white paper plate to a black sheet of cardboard. Align your front bead such that it is concentric with the paper plate. Should see an equal amount of white around the perimeter of your dark front bead. Or you can make a thick black ring on a white target that is slightly larger than what your front sight covers at sighting distance and align to have a uniform white ring.

Or on retangular targets align your front bead on the side edge of the target and top edge. Basically keep the circle tangent to one horizontal edge and one vertical edge. Different colors / contrast will help. Staple targets to a large sheet of cardboard that is a different color as compared to your targets. This also works well with scopes.

[indian joe]

I noticed over the years that there is often considerable difference in bragging groups "shot" in the bar or coffee shops and the groups shot on target paper at the range ... nuff said

this!!!!!

[Lloyd Smale]

I noticed over the years that there is often considerable difference in bragging groups "shot" in the bar or coffee shops and the groups shot on target paper at the range ... nuff said

yup and ive seen many guys who shot one lucky 3 shot moa group claim there 2.5 in gun is moa accurate. when i claim a gun shoots an _ sized group. its an average of 3 5shot groups with no called fliers. ive never seen a win 94 3030 do that. now i have seen a few marlin 3030s that would. dad had (nephew has it now) 50's era 22in 336 adl that would shoot win 150 corelocks into an 1-1 1/8 all day long and yes im talking 5 shot groups

[MSD MIke]

I appreciate everyone's suggestions and advice. I'm also glad that not being able to shoot my 94 well at 100 yards with aging eyes and original sights isn't unique to me! I think I can find a suitable solution with the sights, practice and get a decent result. Fortunately, the competition I want to shoot in is informal and just for fun. I see the competitors miss often enough to know they have similar struggles to me.
Over the years, I have found that trying to shoot groups with lever guns and mini 14's can be frustrating. Yet shooting them off hand at reasonable ranges can be great fun.

Thanks
Mike

[dverna]

Mike,
Some of the advice so far may not help you much as you want to shoot steel plates at 100 yards. You have to deal with those targets and not what can be done to make paper targets easier to use.

I have done well with tang sights on pistol caliber carbines, but they are not cheap. They come with different size apertures, so some "fine tuning" is possible. Merit also makes an adjustable aperture but I have not tried it.

With the "peep" sight, your eye will naturally find the center and you need put the front sight where you want to hit. You may need to play with what type of front sight suits your needs, but they are not expensive.

There should be receiver mounted peep sights available for your 94. A tang sight will give a slightly longer sight radius than a receiver peep, and that helps with getting more precision.

Good luck!!

[Jackpine]

Mike,

Running out of sight is a common issue, especially with cast bullets as the distances increase. I shoot strictly cast bullets, none over 1400 fps.

You can spend a thoughsand dollars on a vernier sight, but I have had very good luck with Pedersoli verniers that you can get for under $200. The big difference between a cheaper Pedersoli and and high end MVA is the backlash in the adjustment. I always adjust by turning the sight higher, so if I want to lower, I turn down past my desired point and then come back up, then locking the eyepiece. Otherwise recoil will cause the eyepeice to drop to the bottom of the backlash. The other shortfall of the cheaper sights is limited windage adjustment, but when you initially install and sight in, I use the front sight to get the windage of the rear centered (do it on a calm day) and have never run out of adjustment. Actually on steel target matches, I usually don't adjsut but "hold off." That is another reason I like the circle front, but your mileage may vary.

Also, having the rear aperture the correct size is important. You want to see daylight around the front sight and the aperture size needed will vary with the size of the front, distance from aperture to eye and your eyes. You can solve this by spending $100 on an adjustable eyepeice, but I have found that using a numbered drill set and gradually enlarging till I reach the size I need works pretty well.

One thing I forgot about the Pedersoli is that you can adjust the angle of the sight so that your aperture hole is perfectly aligned. This will vary from rifle to rifle and saves having to buy a sight which is prematched to the particlular firearm.

Good luck,

Jackpine

I have have higher end

[Larry Gibson]

yup and ive seen many guys who shot one lucky 3 shot moa group claim there 2.5 in gun is moa accurate. ........

Yup, right on Lloyd.....

Who needs the sights anyways....I can instinct shoot my ole winny thutty-thutty and hit a deer in the eye across a thousand yard canyon with the deer on a bounding run while I's at a full gallop with my trusty stead riding bareback and hangin injin style on the off side shootin under the steads neck....yup, who needs them sights anyways.......

[veeman]

The Marbles Bullseye peep sight has helped me a great deal, and have them on several of my leverguns.

[Char-Gar]

.

IME, for paper target work, a vast difference in accuracy can occur with any rifle with 2-piece stocks because of the way it's held @ the shooting bench.

I got the best accuracy from my leverguns by not let the rifle touch anything other than my hands & shoulder - taking care that my forward hand is under the forend on the front rest, and pulling the butt back solidly into my shoulder, ensuring the tip of the buttstock doesn't touch the benchtop when firing.

I put receiver peep sights and a fiber-optic front sight on all my leverguns except for my somewhat longer range BigBore .356, which got scoped.

Although these rifles are accurate enough for hunting, IMO it's an unreasonable expectation to think they should be as accurate as a target or bolt-action rifle.

Also, these guns can have things that vary between rifles, and should be taken into consideration - like tight/loose barrel bands, tight/loose forend fit to the barrel, and muzzle/crown issues.

.

This would have been my post, plus when shooting for a group, single load a round in the chamber and don't run them through the mag tube. The shifting weight of the rounds in the tube will effect accuracy.

a94 Carbine is a 4 to 5 inch rifle and groups less are fluke 3 shot groups. They are short to medium range hunting/working rifles and not target firearms.

[pricedo]

I truthfully spoke about my shooting performance with my Marlin 336SS ... good but not stellar ... I'm sure there are plenty of shooters on here that could do better ... one thing I'm certain of is that the dead deer I took were ALL believers as the ground rushed up to meet them

[Larry Gibson]

I see folks say they are shooting 2-3'' groups at 100 yards with their model 94's. Mine is (Mid 80's vintage) accurate at shorter ranges but the front sight more than covers a complete rifle target at 100 yards and I can barely keep it on the paper. Based on accuracy at shorter range I know the rifle can do better. So, my question is, are the guys shooting accurately at 100 yards doing it with factory sights? If so, what sight picture are you using? If using aftermarket sights, what are you using?
I am going to participate in some cast bullet rifle competitions at my local range and need to be able to hit 100-yard steel targets if I do my part.

Thanks
Mike

Here is the suggested sight alignment [relationship of front sight to rear sight] and sight picture [sight alignment in relation to the target] as printed in the Winchester manual which came with a M94.




First thing to note is the size of the bullseye (black part) of the target is large enough to give a definite place to aim.

Next note the how the bead sits in the notch with equal "light' around the notch between the notch and the bead front sight. The relationship between the bead and the rear sight notch is called "sight alignment". It must remain the same throughout the shooting process and the eye should focus on the front sight keeping it as clear ass possible. It is ok if the bullseye [I prefer to use an 8 - 12" bullseye] is slightly blurred as you can still aim at the same spot on the "blur" for each shot. If the front sight is blurred and the target focused clear then the groups/accuracy will be poor. Focus on the front sight.

I like to zero my M94 sights so the center of the group/cone of fire is 2 to 2 1/2" above the point of aim at 100 yards. Also, when zeroing from the bench I prefer to hold the M94 with both elbows resting on the bench. I hold the fore end as when shooting it and rest the back of the fore end hand solidly on a firm sandbag. Using good breathing and trigger control I can shoot 2 - 3" five shot groups with my full bore 178 gr 311041HP hunting loads. Remember, focus on the front sight and use a large enough aiming point.

[Old-Win]

We just had our last gong match at Harris, Minnesota this past weekend. It's called a lever gun silhouette match out to 300 yards. Almost all of us shoot 17A's for a front sight and a good adjustable tang sight like an MVA schutzen or mid range. I have even drilled out the largest Lyman aperture sight so that I can see the targets at that range. We take 10 shots off hand at targets at 200 yd and 10 shots off cross sticks at 300 yd. The 2 targets are 16 inches and 20 inches in diameter. You have to work at good load development to get 2 - 2 1/2" groups at a 100 yds. I shoot a Lyman 311041 gas check bullet which weighs about 173 gr and sized at .309". My two best loads are 14 gr of 4759 and 17 gr of 3031. Try different locations on your rest. Mine shoots best off the forearm.

[farmbif]

one of my weekly exercises is shooting old 22's, either marlin 39 or Remington pump with original iron sights at 3" steel pole at 80 yards. I have to wear 3.00 power reading glasses to read the type on this screen and those iron sights are blurred but im still able to do it. usually it is common to ring the pole 8 or 9 out of 10 shots.
I guess if you practice you can do it

[indian joe]

one of my weekly exercises is shooting old 22's, either marlin 39 or Remington pump with original iron sights at 3" steel pole at 80 yards. I have to wear 3.00 power reading glasses to read the type on this screen and those iron sights are blurred but im still able to do it. usually it is common to ring the pole 8 or 9 out of 10 shots.
I guess if you practice you can do it

really no good substitute for burnt powder and trigger time !
one comment back to some of the earlier posts ---if you cant see your front sight clearly your goose is cooked
I am nudging 75yrs - use no 3's to see the screen 1.5's to shoot - still shooting blackpowder competitively - I have square blade front sight that cover the width of the black on the target (8 inches) and a flat top rear with a correspondingly wide notch - on a good day off a rest I can make a ten shot group thats half the size of that front sight - cuz I can see it ok ......everybody sees different I guess - seems I do better with a peep using no glasses.

[MSD MIke]

Here is the suggested sight alignment [relationship of front sight to rear sight] and sight picture [sight alignment in relation to the target] as printed in the Winchester manual which came with a M94.




First thing to note is the size of the bullseye (black part) of the target is large enough to give a definite place to aim.

Next note the how the bead sits in the notch with equal "light' around the notch between the notch and the bead front sight. The relationship between the bead and the rear sight notch is called "sight alignment". It must remain the same throughout the shooting process and the eye should focus on the front sight keeping it as clear ass possible. It is ok if the bullseye [I prefer to use an 8 - 12" bullseye] is slightly blurred as you can still aim at the same spot on the "blur" for each shot. If the front sight is blurred and the target focused clear then the groups/accuracy will be poor. Focus on the front sight.

I like to zero my M94 sights so the center of the group/cone of fire is 2 to 2 1/2" above the point of aim at 100 yards. Also, when zeroing from the bench I prefer to hold the M94 with both elbows resting on the bench. I hold the fore end as when shooting it and rest the back of the fore end hand solidly on a firm sandbag. Using good breathing and trigger control I can shoot 2 - 3" five shot groups with my full bore 178 gr 311041HP hunting loads. Remember, focus on the front sight and use a large enough aiming point.

Thanks Larry, I shoot the same bullet but not quite "Full Bore". I may need to up my load some to be able to use that sight picture. I tried a Unique load, and it grouped well but did not shoot to the sights in any position. I couldn't raise my sight far enough. I went to a 2400 load at about 1750 FPS, and it works well at the highest sight position but not using a 6 o'clock hold. I'll load a few at higher velocity with a rifle powder and check results.

Mike