When did casting get like this ?

[dverna]

The more I read on this site, the more I discover just how much I do not know. It sounds to me, that many of you have forgotten more than I'll ever be able to learn. (I just got started in this business a couple of years ago. The calendar is telling me I don't have enough time left to learn all this stuff.)

Here is the "Cliff notes" as I see it.

Cast bullets can be used in the vast majority of pistol rounds successfully without a PHD in casting. The reasons being...they are larger bullets and easier to cast...they are rarely pushed much over 1400 fps....top accuracy is not needed (in fact most people cannot shoot pistols well enough to tell)

Cast bullets in factory rifles gets more challenging. If you stay under 2000 fps and are satisfied with 3 MOA at 100 yards you can get there with some work. If you want to go over 2200 fps and/or get 6" groups at 300 yards it is not a walk in the park. As bullet diameter lessens, the challenge will increase.

I doubt there are more than a dozen people on this site that can achieve 2 MOA at 300 yards with cast bullets at 2500 fps MV. They have shown us how to do it. It is not easy.

Years ago, I started a thread when PC bullets became "the new thing". It asked people to post if they had been able to get 2 MOA at 100 yards with PC'ed bullets. IIRC, after months of activity, there were a handful of folks who had been able to do it.

You need to learn enough to meet your requirements and enough to know if your goals are realistic. If you cannot cast a bullet for the .38 Spl that will hold 3" at 50 yards out of a decent carbine or target pistol, you are not ready to move on to "bigger and better" things.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

With many calibers, recoil can become an issue. Again rifling twist can become a factor. The 32 Special and 35 Rem can be loaded to their maximum(or above in stronger actions) with little difficulty. The 22 Hornet in older rifles with 1-16 twist works fine well above 2000fps. There are multiple theories on what limits attainable velocity. Richard Lee's 'Lee Precision Modern Reloading Manual 2nd Edition' also has some theories. Higher velocities can be reached, but more care and attention to many details start to get involved. Barrel twist, lead/bullet alloy/hardness, burn rate of powders ( slower powders for easier, longer bullet acceleration), bullet lubrication or coatings. For shooting at 50 to 100 yards, velocity is not particularly important, distance and wind is when velocity and bullet shape start to make difference. Again FUN and an enjoyable exercise shooting, Reloading and molding bullets all come into play. Cost can also be a consideration. Can you make a .223 bullet cheaper than the bulk bullets available? Time, mold cost, accuracy, with FUN the highest priority.

[Bigslug]

If you read through the threads on the .30XCB, you're going to see that going HV with cast is really another plateau of technology.

If you wanted to liken it to airplanes: merely getting airborne requires some carpentry skills, canvas, and a really basic internal combustion engine; hanging guns on that airplane and pushing it to 500mph requires you advance those concepts - a lot; punching through the sound barrier requires you to pretty much discard everything you thought you knew about making airplanes. . .and it's going to cost you more and work your brain harder than your boards and sheets.

Similarly, we've got a bunch of hunting and target rifles out there in the world that have rifling twists optimized for jacketed bullets - often custom-built with faster twists to shoot long, super-pointy aerodynamic jacketed bullets. The "classic" beauty of the .30-06's 1-10" twist is that you can run jacketed bullets from 110 to north of 220 grains. That all falls apart when you try to spin up a cast bullet past (IME) about 2,200-2,300 fps. At that point, you're needing to "rework the airplane" with a slower twist barrel, and that .30-06's jacketed versatility is gone.

So it becomes a question of spending serious money on rifle work, and serious time on ammo quality control to save money on jacketed bullets with the goal of shooting cast at long range. Not my idea of economy. YMMV.

[sukivel]

I’m with Larry and dverna.

After my journey with .223 and .308 I only cast for pistol calibers, slower medium, and big bores now.


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[waksupi]

I think the companies weren't trying to push the limits, like we do.

[Daekar]

More power to those willing to go through the effort, but I have better things to spend time and money on than attempting to use cast bullets in cartridges designed around jacketed bullets.

[WRideout]

When I bought the Lyman 311284 mold for my 30-06 rifle, the intent was to create a hunting load for deer. A 100 yard shot is a long one in this Appalachian part of PA, so max velocity is not the goal. I figure that at the same velocity a 210 gr lead gas checked boolit has more authority that a 150 gr FMJ. After trying several powders, it turned out the H4895 was the key to hunting accuracy in my rifle. No idea what the velocity is; I quit there.

Wayne

[fredj338]

So basically most just don't care enough to go down that road so that part of casting has just kinda died off.

I think diminishing returns. Most will not fire 100rds a year of cf rifle. So buying j bullets seems prudent v a mold & gc & trying to find a good load for the purpose intended. I shoot 9-10k handgun rds a year. A few rifle rds between 223 & hunting rifles. It just isnt super beneficial for me to mess with cast in rifles. I did get a mold for my 6.8, pb, just because. With PC, accuracy is decent at 2000fps. I would still reach for a good jsp to hunt though. Casting & reloading is a hobby for me though.

[Newtire]

As far as I'm concerned, the Lyman Cast bullet book is probably a good book for someone who is just starting out but hardly the final word. I have, as many others have done, pushed cast bullets past 2200 fps out of a number of guns. With powder coated bullets I would say that you could top that easily. Just try it and you will see. This forum is probably one of the best places to learn about how to do that. I wouldn't say that a cast bullet can do everything a jacketted bullet can but it sure can beat the velocity limits put on cast bullets by Lyman. Anyone who's ever owned a microgrooved Marlin .444 should know that micro-grooves handle cast just fine. A lot of myths out there can be dispelled by simply trying it out yourself. Get out there and shoot. Saying that. back to work so I can get back out in the garage for some casting.

[405grain]

Possibly for long range target shooting velocity may be an important criteria, but for hunting and general target shooting it isn't the most important aspect. Jacketed bullets have a hard copper jacket that requires higher velocity and impact energy to expand than cast bullets. Because cast bullets don't have a hard metal jacket, they expand at lower velocities. The higher velocities of jacketed bullets would probably be a determent to cast bullets when hunting because it might cause the bullets to fragment on impact instead of penetrating deeply and expanding normally. As a lucky coincidence, the velocity range where cast bullets are best at penetration and expansion on game is usually around the same region where best cast bullet accuracy is obtained.

High velocity, sometimes not even up to jacketed velocity, can cause cast bullets to become inaccurate. There are lots of reasons for this: deformation because of acceleration and pressure, too high of a spin rate, gas cutting and blow-by from excessive pressure, etc. To get accuracy at high velocity you really have to work for it. With specialty alloys, advanced reloading techniques, and firearms designed specifically for shooting high velocity cast loads, if you have the skills you may reap the benefits of those higher velocity loadings. But for the vast majority of us casters, we get out optimal accuracy at a lower speed range. Case in point: my 6.5x55 Mauser is capable of shooting a 3/4" group at 50 yards with a 150 grain Lyman #266673 using a charge of 14 grains of 2400. That's "only" around 1500 fps. If I chose a higher velocity those groups would start to open up. Another example would be my 7x57 Mauser, shooting an RCBS 168 grain bullet with 28 grains of IMR-3031 (with 1 grain poly filler), that has been able to print 1" groups at 100 yards. (scope, benchrest, no wind, me doing a decent job, etc.) This is at around 1750 fps.

I don't want to push a bullet faster just to try and emulate jacked bullets. Cast bullets preform at a different design regime. I would have no qualms using that same 7x57 target load to hunt with, though if I were loading specifically for hunting I'd probably step up the velocity to 1850 fps. For both general target shooting and hunting, cast bullets loads below 2000 fps are usually the best choice, and going higher can sometimes put you at a disadvantage rather than an improvement.

[fredj338]

Possibly for long range target shooting velocity may be an important criteria, but for hunting and general target shooting it isn't the most important aspect. Jacketed bullets have a hard copper jacket that requires higher velocity and impact energy to expand than cast bullets. Because cast bullets don't have a hard metal jacket, they expand at lower velocities. The higher velocities of jacketed bullets would probably be a determent to cast bullets when hunting because it might cause the bullets to fragment on impact instead of penetrating deeply and expanding normally. As a lucky coincidence, the velocity range where cast bullets are best at penetration and expansion on game is usually around the same region where best cast bullet accuracy is obtained.

High velocity, sometimes not even up to jacketed velocity, can cause cast bullets to become inaccurate. There are lots of reasons for this: deformation because of acceleration and pressure, too high of a spin rate, gas cutting and blow-by from excessive pressure, etc. To get accuracy at high velocity you really have to work for it. With specialty alloys, advanced reloading techniques, and firearms designed specifically for shooting high velocity cast loads, if you have the skills you may reap the benefits of those higher velocity loadings. But for the vast majority of us casters, we get out optimal accuracy at a lower speed range. Case in point: my 6.5x55 Mauser is capable of shooting a 3/4" group at 50 yards with a 150 grain Lyman #266673 using a charge of 14 grains of 2400. That's "only" around 1500 fps. If I chose a higher velocity those groups would start to open up. Another example would be my 7x57 Mauser, shooting an RCBS 168 grain bullet with 28 grains of IMR-3031 (with 1 grain poly filler), that has been able to print 1" groups at 100 yards. (scope, benchrest, no wind, me doing a decent job, etc.) This is at around 1750 fps.

I don't want to push a bullet faster just to try and emulate jacked bullets. Cast bullets preform at a different design regime. I would have no qualms using that same 7x57 target load to hunt with, though if I were loading specifically for hunting I'd probably step up the velocity to 1850 fps. For both general target shooting and hunting, cast bullets loads below 2000 fps are usually the best choice, and going higher can sometimes put you at a disadvantage rather than an improvement.

Sort of. I cast for my 45-70 but jacketed upset just fine at 2000fps while getting a lead bullet to do that & shoot well is a challenge. If I have to rely on a gc in other calibers, might as well shoot jacketed.

[gwpercle]

When I started casting and reloading ... 1967 ... there was no internet , no forums and no U-Tube . All I had was The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #2 ( #3 wasn't published untill 1980 ) and some NRA Publications and a reloading book by Phil Sharpe .
There was no one around to tell me I couldn't do something like shoot cast lead 30 cal. boolits over 2000 fps ... properly sized , with a hard , heat treated boolit , a gas check and good lube ... you can do a lot .
I shot them as fast as I wanted to ... Good accuracy may not be easy to get , but with enough work you could usually do what needed to be done .

I guess when you don't have someone telling you ... that can't be done ... you just jump in and get it done !
Lyman Cast Boolit Handbook #3 is still my Main #1 Go-To Book !
Gary

[gc45]

HV is not why most reload or cast their own Boolits. Lower cost and accuracy is what most are after. I know my Dad looked at it way back then, he shot large caliber rifles and revolvers. I learned from him and mostly reload and hunt using the older rifles from the 1800's, both single shot and levers at those velocities intended for them. For all who want to push lead to, or over 2000fps that is totally acceptable in my book, pushing the envelope is "the mother of invention" and more power to them.

[popper]

I've only gone to 2400 fps with cast. It can be done. Most are happy (including me) for 18-1900 for hunting/plinking. Why beat up the gun?

[Hannibal]

Sort of. I cast for my 45-70 but jacketed upset just fine at 2000fps while getting a lead bullet to do that & shoot well is a challenge. If I have to rely on a gc in other calibers, might as well shoot jacketed.

I had a different take on the 45-70. I stick with black powder pressures and use a softer lead. Worked just as well recently as it did over a century ago.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Did the usual cleaning ritual yesterday, fast or slow, cast boolits simply polish the bores of my favourite guns to a mirror finish. No. 'J' boolit will do that!

Yes, I'm hooked on casting.

[Good Cheer]

Guys, there's a reality people operate within during any discussion. With cast boolits it's generally factory produced cartridges and that's the reality.

You want to make your boolits do what you want? Go design your own cartridge.

[Walstr]

It is not worth the journey. You read a lot of crap on sites like this. Listen to Larry. He nailed it.

The smartest decision I made was to give up on HV cast bullet loads. You will waste a lot of components and time to get mediocre results with most factory rifles.

I tried and failed with .30 cal bullets. It is easy to get a sub 1.5 MOA load with almost any $30-40 jacketed bullet in the .308 at 2600 fps. It is a challenge with cast bullets. And by sub 1.5 MOA I mean the average of 4 five shot groups...wallet groups do not mean much. I have no need for thousands of .30 cal bullets so why waste the time/resources. I bought 1200 premium hunting bullets that will last my lifetime for less than $700. You can piss away money on a two or three molds to find a bullet your gun "likes", and try different lubes and different sizers and GC's and shoot a bunch of groups with $85/k primers and $45/lb powder to find a mediocre load that shoots 2 MOA at 100 yards but goes to hell at 300 yards and may not expand reliably at all ranges.

With the .223 cast is even more ridiculous. I can buy 55 gr Hornady SP's for less than $10/100 and they will shoot 1 MOA at 3000 fps. Try that with a cast bullet. The Hornady bullets are less than $10/100 in bulk. A cast GC bullet is about $4/100. IMO it makes no sense to cast for that caliber.

Now, it you like to do stuff like that, go for it. BTW have you seen how many molds have gone on sale on this site recently? It is a good time to buy stuff but it tells you others are either getting too old to cast or have given up on getting good results.

The reality is you can never cast a better HV bullet than you can buy. You will need to determine the trade offs of deterioration in accuracy/range, cost savings and time invested.

And therein lies the definition between a 'hobby' and its relative 'amateur scientific study'. For me, there's a little of both in my wheelhouse & that what keeps me up late - with a smile on my face. Good times Pard, good times.

[TurnipEaterDown]

I have several reasons to cast bullets, and most vary by application:

1) Small Pistol -- One mold (LEE) is cheaper than bought bullets, and I have lots of lead and applicable powder
2) Large Revolver -- Even w/ multiple Molds casting is a cost savings, and Lead bullets (GC or PB, and I lean toward PB very much) deliver less wear & tear on forcing cones, and a performance Increase (Velocity, Trajectory, and sometimes Accuracy). I find 2 1/2 inch groups at 50 yds very easy w/ Cast.
3) SS Pistol -- For me these are mid to large bore, and I use some of my other molds (no added costs) -- up to 2000 fps-ish -- I find Cost and (w/ 35 Rem) Performance improvements. Accuracy is Equivalent in what I use to jacketed
4) Mid size rifle (30-35) -- I use these 1600-2000 Mostly. It's about cost for me, and AT TIMES load development w/ undefined powders in the cartridge. I can shoot a lot more for the same bill. I give up little to none in Accuracy.
5) Large size rifle (416) -- I use these ~ 2000 fps Mostly. It's about Cost for me, and VERY OFTEN load development w/ just about any powders in the cartridges. I can shoot a Lot more for the same bill. I give up Nothing in Accuracy in my two 416 applications.

6) I find it (a) enjoyable, (b) relaxing, (c) educational.

[elmacgyver0]

I'm kind of glad I do not have high level expectations; life is more enjoyable that way.
As long as my guns cycle and I have reasonable accuracy, I don't try to push the envelope.
I like PC because it looks nice and it is clean, not because I can send it down the barrel at the speed of light.
Of course, I'm just an old fart and it doesn't take much to amuse me.