When did casting get like this ?

[waksupi]

For those who don't know, Lyman used to be a sponsor here, and they would recommend customers to direct their questions to this page for answers on cast bullets.
They got upset when members here would have legitimate complaints about their quality of some molds. Lyman demanded that those type of comments be censored. Ken told them to jump rope.
Lyman recognized this is the place for expertise of what can be accomplished with cast bullets.

[jdgabbard]

I think the reason that velocity of current cast loads has fallen off is because of the lack of Linotype. Back when I was shooting silhouette lino was selling for 15 - 20 CENTS a pound. Heck, most of my 7mm bullets were pure Lino and I had no problem driving them to 2300 fps. I was even shooting "hardball" (Half and half, Lino and pure) in my IPSC and PPC guns.

It's true that Linotype was used a lot more then than it is today. But I don't think Lino is maker/breaker of accuracy and velocity as it was once viewed. Sure, a harder boolit can perform better at higher velocities under certain circumstances. But generally, in my experience, it has more to do with leading than anything. But even then, some of my best shooting loads I've experienced a decent amount of leading with. Though, in my experience that does seem to be the exception to the rule rather than the rule itself. Even then, we've consistently shown fit is more important than hardness. I think Lino was simply preferred for it's hardness helping to prevent excess leading. Not it's potential for accuracy, which I've seen no evidence of in my loads. From what I've gathered BP shooters have been quite familiar with this for a long time, a softer boolit obturates to help fill in the voids. So we in the smokeless realm instead size 0.002 - 4 over bore to achieve something similar. Along with looking at all kinds of different lubrication techniques - whether that be some great new lube, or PC'd boolits. There just isn't the need for Lino anymore with the advancement of our understanding about what is happening with the boolit. Of course this doesn't take boolit "skidding" into consideration, which can and does affect accuracy as well as leading in the throat area.

As to my own willingness to push the speed barriers of cast, it is just not what my goal is. There are three areas that cast has for me - primarily that is. One is training. It's a cheap, accurate, and reliable alternative to shoot high volumes of commercial ammo now that all the cheap imported stuff from yesteryear has dried up. I haven't seen what I consider cheap imported stuff in years... Second, for hunting. The fact is, I don't need a 3000fps bullet to take down the game I'm shooting at. I can do that with a decent projectile traveling at 1800fps easy enough. Third, I have fun going to the range and shooting. If nothing else, it's just plain fun to go put rounds on paper, or steel if that's your thing. Any of those items are more than met requirement wise with boolits under 2000fps. And at the end of the day, RPMs have an effect as Larry pointed out. I am loading for the tools I have, i.e. the rifles/pistols I own. Not building tools around the boolits I want. I know my limitations, and I am working within the envelope I have.

To me this is the same conversation about hot-rodding <insert whatever pistol round> for maximum velocity. Sure, it's fun when you just get started to see how powerful of a round you can make. But once that wears off you start looking for the most accurate load for whatever it is you're doing. Unless you're another Elmer Keith who is just dead set on seeing what kind of handcannon you can come up with next...

[midnight]

I too hit the 2100 fps wall. My 2100 fps load for the 50 bmg with a 833 gr linotype bullet shot 1 moa over and over. 2300 fps groups were in the 4 inch range. I have powder coated a couple of batches but have yet to load them. My advanced age and the loss of my range to shoot at means I probably won’t be shooting them. Lake City 647gr ball ammo gets 2800fps from my 30 inch 15 twist barrel so I imagine 2650 or so is all I could expect from my 833gr linotype bullet anyway so I’m only 500fps short of the max I could expect. Maybe the powder coat might give me 2 or 3 hundred more but I’ll probably never find out.

Bob

[fredj338]

I had a different take on the 45-70. I stick with black powder pressures and use a softer lead. Worked just as well recently as it did over a century ago.

In some guns yes. The Marlins may be better with jacketed. My GG is pretty darn accurate with 350gr SP @ 2000fps & they upset just fine at 100y..

[Harter66]

My personal achievements with cast come from a long list of folks a number of them are no longer here and more have passed on .


I've long felt that this site allowed many of the more adventurous types to build on the work of others and yet others to build on that work .

The results of that can be in my own quests and results.
I do have a mechanical aptitude so that probably helps .

I've successfully run all of my pistols to full jacketed performance without leading, checks or unusually hard bullets . As I've loaded the docile 38 Short, Special, 45 Schofield, and Colts thats not a huge surprise but when you add 357 , 9 , and 40 to the mix it gets more interesting.
30-30 and 32 Rem doing 2200 fps MV with 160s and and 175s isn't super special. Doing it plain based does make it more interesting and just over 1 MOA makes more interesting.
222 Rem 2640 fps under an inch per 5 at 100 yd with a 62 gr .
223 just won't walk for me past about 1940 fps . 1-8" vs the 1-12 of the 222 I suspect has a little to do with it , same everything as the 222 .
Dad's 25-06' is still a work in progress all of the loads seem to run up and close down to about 1.5" at 50 and then go flat . There's not a lot data for 125 gr bullet cast or otherwise. The 1-9 should be plenty as it shoots a longer 100gr jacket in to an inch with boring monotony.
I paper patched the 6.5s so I don't think those count here . The only interesting thing about them is that 1 was a 264WM .
The 6.8 SPC with a 1-11 twist bolt runs a 130 2250 it falls apart over 2100 in the 1-10" and wouldn't cycle the 4198 that was grouping better and going fast in the 16" barrels .
1800 was the top for the 1-9 06' and 7.62 39 . 200 gr spitzer.
358 Win shoots 5 into .760 ctc with a 255 gr 35-250 at 2100 fps . Like the 222 this is the middle of the jacket data by weight .
I've pushed a 255 gr plain base 2000 fps MV in a 45-70 1895G with excellent results . The 405s and a 530 gr 45-500 hover around 2.5" and 1100 fps MV is plenty of thump for me and 2.5" at 100 will handle all the work I'll ever need done

7mm , finding a bullet has been a challenge . I expect to find the happy place about 1900 fps MV . Having a 1-8.5 twist doesn't make me super happy in the 7×57 but it should be great with the 7×6.8 SPC

[Newtire]

Just something I discovered by trying something new for myself. We tested the hardness of the lead from the range scrap I cast these from and the LBT tester said #5. I dug them out of the 100 yard berm. They were going 1700-1750 out of the muzzle. They were powder coated is all in a $10.00 toaster oven. No fancy alloys or anything and really accurate. .357 160 gr. NOE rn. Hmmm..can't seem to post a picture now. Used to be able to do that.OK, got it. Gas check? We don’t need no steenking gas checks.

[charlie b]

Have cast for 40yrs, mostly pistol. Last 5 yrs have gone to rifle (.308win 10" twist).

Started at 'normal' velocities and then went to PC. Favorite bullet is a 210gn bore rider powder coated. Good for ~1MOA out to 300yd. 500yd it is not as consistent but still gets less than 1.5MOA.

Went the HV route. Ran into the vel (RPM) limit. Sometimes I could get 2300fps bullets to work and sometimes not. Never figured that part out. I 'think' it is temp related but not sure. I stopped simply because I don't like the recoil. I'd rather shoot 1900fps at 300yd and hit soda cans 9 of 10 times. Gentle to shoot, cheap bullets. I am still working on better accuracy, MOA is ok but 1/2MOA would be better

When I want long range stuff I get out my 6BR with custom bullets

Re the Lyman handbook. Just because they list a vel does not mean it is accurate. Accuracy for a load may be horrible, but, they list where the max pressure is reached with that bullet and powder. Nothing has really changed over the years. I remember a LOT of work with cast bullets and bench rest shooting back in the 80's. Tons of stuff was tried to get vel up and they would still go back to 1700-2000fps.

Sent from my SM-P613 using Tapatalk

[Shiloh]

A friend has a .30 cal. 1:12 barrel. He drives them over 2000fps.

Shiloh

[firefly1957]

I only loaded a few high speed cast bullet loads before I tried powder coat ( I am preferring baked on spray enamel paint) I got good results in .45 & 50 Caliber rifles with fast loads and conventional lube .

One thing I have found out with coated bullets I can go dead soft and shoot accurately past 2000 f/s. I also found you DO NOT WANT TO SEAT ANY ALLOY BULLET DEEPER THEN THE CASE NECK! I did this with a 162 grain gas check bullet in .357-44 B&D @ 1700 f/s two shots were fine almost touched at 25 yards The third shot had a large smoke cloud the bullet hit the edge of the paper canted a bit . My barrel ports bore and even brass case where coated with lead! From what I could see the bullet must have riveted (deformed) before leaving the case and all that lead just made a mess as more and more was exposed even with the gas check in there somewhere! Oddly the primer showed no high pressure signs ?

[Larry Gibson]

The RPM Threshold of 120-140,000 RPM with ternary cast lubed bullets falls between 1666 and 1944 fps out of a 10" twist barrel. Out of a 12" twist barrel the range is 2000 to 2333 fps. Barrel twist does make a difference.

[Targa]

The only thing I run through my Winchester 30-30 are my cast 150 and 170 grain bullets. The 150’s are just over 2300 fps using Leverevolution powder, I haven’t noticed any leading worth mentioning.

[Wooserco]

While I've been out of the casting world for about 25 years: just recently coming back (I want my old Ideal molds back!) my casting and High Power Rifle shooting mentor (Lester Z.) taught me that 1,800 fps. was the limit for shooting cast.

He would shoot the CMP and club matches with cast at 200 and 300 yards with his bolt rifle. I can still see him rockin' and rollin' with his bolt rife. Only switched to jacketed at 600 yds. He was a Korean war vet. I still remember the stories that those vets told during a cease fire to clear the turkeys away from the line of fire. My 12 and 14 year old kids were in the target pits with me that day. I told them to listen, they were getting a first hand history lesson that will never be taught in school. One was Navy, one Army at the Battle of Pusan. Man, I miss Lester.

[frkelly74]

Then there is Zinc. a whole different rabbit hole to investigate.

[ACC]

Well it seems the big companies, like Lyman and RCBS, have dumbed it down because of liability. I remember back is the 70's casting your own bullets was the way to go. Now not so much. People are so scared of lead poisoning. I have a lead level done every year and I am below normal. I only reload for one rifle my 7.62X39 bolt action rifle these days and once I got the right mold, I push it to the same velocity that jacketed bullets give me with no leading. These are powder coated. I also cast for all the hand guns I shoot. These are tumble lubed because I shoot so many rounds a month and don't have time to powder coat them.

ACC

[20:1]

Competing members of the Cast Bullet Assn. routinely shoot cast out to 200 yards. It requires patience, determination, and a lot of work getting everything dialed in. There is a large following of competitors using production rifles, surplus military rifles, plain base bullets, and even handguns. They're not just unlimited class bench monsters. There are other examples as well such as the Quigley Matches, and other long range events. One basic guideline is to follow the accuracy, not the velocity. Additionally, I've shot a few heavy caliber rifles at over 2500 fps with roughly 1.5 MOA. As I said earlier, it requires patience, determination, and a lot of work getting everything dialed in.

[dtknowles]

Competing members of the Cast Bullet Assn. routinely shoot cast out to 200 yards. It requires patience, determination, and a lot of work getting everything dialed in. There is a large following of competitors using production rifles, surplus military rifles, plain base bullets, and even handguns. They're not just unlimited class bench monsters. There are other examples as well such as the Quigley Matches, and other long range events. One basic guideline is to follow the accuracy, not the velocity. Additionally, I've shot a few heavy caliber rifles at over 2500 fps with roughly 1.5 MOA. As I said earlier, it requires patience, determination, and a lot of work getting everything dialed in.

I have not competed and I am not sure how competitive I could be but I have shot a lot of groups under 1.5 MOA at 100 yards at over 2000 fps with a 30 BR, can't get to 2500 fps with that small case. I have shot a few groups under 1.0 MOA but not many most are just over. I don't know about patience and determination and a lot of work. I mean it is not just throw together something and it will work but not a lot more than typical load development if you start with recommendations you can find here. The XCB threads are outstanding regarding alloy and lube and bullet fit to barrel and throat and bullet choice.

Yes, it would be really hard if we did not have all this experience to lean on.

Tim

[rintinglen]

The RPM Threshold of 120-140,000 RPM with ternary cast lubed bullets falls between 1666 and 1944 fps out of a 10" twist barrel. Out of a 12" twist barrel the range is 2000 to 2333 fps. Barrel twist does make a difference.

True words, These! I got useable accuracy out of a 30-30 with a 1-12 twist several hundred feet per second higher than out of a 1-10 inch 30-06. (2 inches at 100). If you look at the guys shooting high velocity cast, at least successfully, they usually use a 1-14, 1-15, or 1-16" twist. Lead bullets have limited tensile strength. Spin them too fast and they will distort in the rifling, skidding and damaging the boollit.

However, increasingly over the years I fell into Dverna's mode of thought. Trying to make cast boolits into jacketed bullets just is not worth the effort. I have enough 308 and 30-06 ammunition to last me for the rest of my life and then some. In Virginia where I live now, I find it hard to envision a need for them. I shoot my 30-30s and my .303 savage at modest velocity and hunt with them.

[deltaenterprizes]

I think the reason that velocity of current cast loads has fallen off is because of the lack of Linotype. Back when I was shooting silhouette lino was selling for 15 - 20 CENTS a pound. Heck, most of my 7mm bullets were pure Lino and I had no problem driving them to 2300 fps. I was even shooting "hardball" (Half and half, Lino and pure) in my IPSC and PPC guns.

The other aspect that I observed is that there is very little testing being done to ensure that the lube being used is giving you the best accuracy. Nowadays it seems that someone will throw together some red lube or LLA and if it doesn't lead, call it good. They are looking for quick and easy! Yet not many people try different lubes or adjusting the components of their lube for best accuracy. I remember having many conversations with Felix over the different components of lube and their effects on accuracy.

Just my 2 cents...

m

You beat me to it!
The lack of cheap alloy is a big factor!
What most people are missing because they have not been through it is when jacketed bullets are not available cast may be the only option!
223 FMJ were very scarce during the first Gulf war and I would imagine that 308s were also.
We are not in a shooting war and components are scarce!
What is going to happen if we do have a full blown war like WWll?
It can happen overnight and what you have may be all you can get for a long time!
The Ukrainian war and the Israeli war are consuming a big part of ammunition components and our component manufacturers are supposed to be working full blast and we still have less than desirable availability of components!
In the early 80s I was buying Linotype for 10-15 cents a pound now I think it is $2/lb on a good day! I had 14,000 pounds that I sold for 25 cents a pound!
Those days are long gone!

[dverna]

m

You beat me to it!
The lack of cheap alloy is a big factor!
What most people are missing because they have not been through it is when jacketed bullets are not available cast may be the only option!
223 FMJ were very scarce during the first Gulf war and I would imagine that 308s were also.
We are not in a shooting war and components are scarce!
What is going to happen if we do have a full blown war like WWll?
It can happen overnight and what you have may be all you can get for a long time!
The Ukrainian war and the Israeli war are consuming a big part of ammunition components and our component manufacturers are supposed to be working full blast and we still have less than desirable availability of components!
In the early 80s I was buying Linotype for 10-15 cents a pound now I think it is $2/lb on a good day! I had 14,000 pounds that I sold for 25 cents a pound!
Those days are long gone!

Good point about supply when things go south. It is the only reason I have molds for my .223’s and .30 cal.

But as time marches on they become less important. I keep a stock of 10k .224 jacketed bullets and 2k .30 cal bullets. So far that has never been a problem. The reality is there are only so many bullets an old man needs for a lifetime supply.

If they banned the sale of bullets or they became scarce, I would work up a useable load for each caliber, but otherwise I have no use for cast bullets in rifle calibers I use. I can get 6000 55 gr Hornady SP for $730 delivered. Not worth my time to fool around with casting, making GC’s and sizing/lubing when I get better accuracy and 3000 fps with $.12 bullets.

[deltaenterprizes]

At the risk of repeating myself, cast may be all that is available to us in a number of situations.
I have been accumulating rifle molds because with the cost of jacketed rifle bullets going to $30-$40 per hundred or more I plan to use cast if and when I retire and I am able to make regular visits with the range on a weekly (or weakly) basis like I did when I was younger and first started casting and reloading.
I have always cast for handguns and rarely shoot jacketed in them.
I have been doing limited cast in rifles and have had good results but I am not pushing them or going for small groups yet just getting the procedure down and not using them in semi automatic rifles.
The money I save on bullets can be put towards powder and primers!