"Auto Rimming" the Common Auto Cartridges: A Discussion

[Bigslug]

Just thought I'd throw this out for discussion as to whether or not it's a good idea, but based on some things I see in the firearm industry, it might be.

The whole moon clip concept, as we know, was a WWI necessity based on dealing with a shortage of 1911 pistols. While some consider moon clips to be the bee's knees, others (myself included) regard them as a total PITA, hence the development of the .45 Auto Rim cartridge.

Some points for this discussion:

1. It is rapidly becoming a 9x19mm world out there. We've seen some 9mm revolvers come along - mostly in comp guns. Some cops will still buy a .38 revolver as a backup, but many of them are drawn to the concept of "free ammo" that their agency provides, so the concept of a moon-clippable 9mm snubby revolver may make a comeback . . . at least if the mini-9mm autos don't sweep the idea away entirely. An Auto Rim version of the round might not be far behind. This overall concept would allow for a revisitation of the heavy .38 S&W concept that was utilized in the mid-20th century. A shorter-than-.38 frame and cylinder length might be a reasonable thing to insert into production. Long enough to allow for up to 200 grain bullets, but a shorter overall gun that has been possible with the .38 Special COAL.

1-A. An opposite direction we could go from the above would be to introduce a "9mm Auto Rim Long" to the party, which would basically come in at a .38 Special or .357 Magnum overall length and be rated at .357 mag-level pressures. This would allow us to keep the .357 performance envelope with the bullet diameter of the 9x19. The same gun could then shoot this round, as well as the 9mmAR or the standard 9x19 moon-clipped.

2. We already have some moon-clippable 10mm revolvers out there, and an Auto-Rim brass option might make for an option to the .41 Mag. The same revolvers would be able to dispose of .40 S&W as well (which could also get the AR treatment). The owner would essentially have a very versatile platform for running up to the 38-.40WCF performance range.

3. The .45ACP/Auto Rim revolver is a well-tested concept, but why not take it a little farther by putting the thick Auto Rim onto the .45 Colt case and standardize the guns on .451"-.452" bullets? This would give the user the "Special" option of the ACP length round for defense and the "Magnum" option of the modified Colt case for hunting.

4. That which can be done in revolvers, can also be done in carbines - lever action and otherwise.

5. Single action / loading gate guns chambered for the above would still require a separate cylinder to run the rimless rounds in addition to the longer "magnum" versions, but the versatility would still be there.

The old revolver cartridges will stay with us, but I see this as a possible way for folks to keep the same performance envelopes with a smaller collection of dies and loading components.

So. . .setting aside what you already own and most of us being old farts unwilling to change, worthy of nagging the industry?

[rintinglen]

9 mm Federal, Anyone? Other than the novelty aspect, I don't see it. The problem with these boutique cartridges is that they have no "legs." Witness the 30 carry. Also, think about the short magnum craze of 20 years ago. You seldom make money with a flash in the pan. Though I am a revolver guy, I acknowledge that I am off the past, not the future. Bottom feeders rule and will continue to do so. The only exception is, and likely will continue to be, the snubby 38/357s. Their reliability will continue to make them a fixture with the "6 (or 5) for sure" crowd.

[Tall]

Not seeing any value in a rimmed 9MM cartridge. I have a revolver that has two cylinders, one for 45 ACP and one for 45 Colt. Never put the ACP cylinder back in the past 15 years. I have a box of 45 Auto Rim that has never been used.

[deltaenterprizes]

As mentioned above the 9mm Federal didn’t make it in the market place.
Only problem was that the ammunition could fit into an older 38cal revolvers that were not able to handle the pressure.

[Hick]

It would be interesting--but moon clips are not bad either. I have a Webley revolver that is shaved for moon clips-- and also have 45 auto-rim brass I use in it. The moon clips actually have an advantage. If I load 50 rounds I can pre-load the moon clips. This makes for very, very fast reloading== as good or better than the best speed loader.

[stubshaft]

When I first bought my S&W 25 in the 70's I HATED fumbling with the half-moon clips. I tried some AR loaded ammo and still have half a box of them left.

Since acquiring a S&W 646 in 40 S&W my appreciation for the full moon clips has grown exponentially! I has gotten to the point where I am considering TK Customs machine some of the cylinders for my non-clip revolver to be able to use them.

[Bigslug]

As mentioned above the 9mm Federal didn’t make it in the market place.
Only problem was that the ammunition could fit into an older 38cal revolvers that were not able to handle the pressure.

The thing that killed the 9mm Federal / 9mm revolver concept was that it came online right as the world started drinking the .40S&W Kool Aid and leaned away from the Wondernine duty autos. With the .40 going away, the notion may have some renewed validity.

Ideally, the 9mm Luger with the addition of a moon clip, or these theoretical Auto Rim versions with a thicker rim to simulate the presence of that moon clip, would require too much headspace to fit into a .38 Special/.357 Mag.

[Dusty Bannister]

I suppose that the 9MM AR would have a place in use, but as a practical factor the cases would be expensive as limited production at first, and may end up like the 45 GAP. Not really necessary to have to stock another caliber that will be unavailable when needed. The clips would work, but seems a bit unneeded since there are already revolvers in production that do not require the clips to function. I believe S&W makes/made a revolver just for the 9MM case. It apparently was not a roaring success.

[Thumbcocker]

A friend of mine had a 9mm revolver, don't remember the brand maybe Ruger?, we cut down some .38 special brass and it chambered fine and looked like it would work. He sold the gun before the project went further. It looked like the .38 rim was thick enough to pop the primers. What might have been.

[rintinglen]

The thing that killed the 9 mm federal is that nobody bought them. Agencies didn't because they didn't want to provide and train with two ammunition types. People who wanted more power could just buy an Sp101 or one of the new J-frames in 357. Most people found a 2 inch 38 all they could handle, anyway. Finally there were liability concerns due to the fact that the 9mm Federal could drop into a 38 S&W chamber as prettily as you please. Lawyers got shivers envisioning someone loading grandpa's black powder top break with a round half again as hot as a proof load for a 38 S&W.

But there are other practical issues that arise when we start talking moon clips. They're a nuisance to load; special tools are needed to save wear and tear on ones fingers. They are flimsy compared to an auto pistol magazine; the IDPA crowd can tell you stories of bent moon clips causing grief. But all that aside, if you have a moon clip that works, you don't need an "AR" cartridge. You just use the 9mm, 40, 10mm, 45 or whatever parent cartridge you are mimicking and save yourself the cost of a specialty round that you can't find anyways. Other than old revolver types--and we get fewer every year--the majority of todays shooters see only trifling advantages to an AR rimmed cartridge. Nothing worth the money.

And if people don't buy them, they won't last in the market regardless of their potential.

[contender1]

"And if people don't buy them, they won't last in the market regardless of their potential."

^^^^THIS^^^^

All too often,, a company making all sorts of products,, tries a "new & improved" product. Often,, it just fails because the consumer doesn't want to change, or has trust in the previous product, or whatever. Companies all want to keep introducing new stuff to keep people buying their products,, so they try new stuff.
But without consumer support,, many good things fail to succeed in any market.

Guns, calibers, new ideas etc,, are subject to these same hurdles. Companies need to be able to make a profit to stay in business. So, investments into new ideas has to be very carefully weighed. Can it be done with ease? Can it be done w/o major expense? And most importantly, will it sell enough to make a profit?

Your idea may be sound,, but the GENERAL,, MASS market won't buy it.

BTW; I used to fail to see any advantage of moon clips, even to the point of refusing to consider them as a viable tool. Then, a collectable Ruger Speed-Six in .9mm found it's way to me. I never used it much,, (and still don't due to it's value.) But then, I got a S&W .45 acp revolver, and found it was fun to enjoy. Now,, I own a few other revolvers that use a moon clip, to include a Ruger Super GP100 in 9mm for USPSA competition. Yesterday's local match, where we had 29 competitors, I was the only revolver shooter. But the "Classifier" stage, I placed 11th out of all of them using the Ruger. And a required reload was part of the classifier.
No disadvantage.

The tools to de-moon & moon up the clips. This is an often discussed subject.
A de-mooning tool is EASILY homemade. Cost; $0.00.
A mooning tool, depending upon the brand & such, from about $35.00 to $75.00.
Moon clips; Ranch products sells a ton of them, and they are inexpensive. Last ones I bought, I paid $30 for 50 of them.
Fully loaded 50 clips equals 400 rounds of ready to shoot ammo.
My expense; around $100.00 for this.

Many of the semi-auto handguns, a magazine will cost between $25-$45 each, with a capacity of 15-17 rounds for most. At 17 rounds, to get about 400 rounds ready to use will require 23 magazines. (26 if the capacity is 15.) At $25 per magazine, 23 of them will cost $575.00.

I shoot competition, and it's a game where reloading, dropping moons on the ground & them occasionally getting stepped on etc, happens. But often, a little careful work, and they are flattened back out & reusable. I haven't yet had to scrap a moon clip.

My point to all this is the CONSUMER sees the lower expense, the practicality, and the benefits of a moon clipped firearm, and therefor buys it.

Moons also have a few other benefits in shooting & reloading. All your brass is easily recovered,, (not so with semi's.) Even at USPSA matches where it's considered a "lost brass" match, revolver shooters are allowed to recover their brass because it's attached to their moon clips.

I know a lot of people consider a moon clipped handgun to be out-dated or just dislike them. Fine,, it's your choice. But back to the original posting,, enough CONSUMERS do use them to where it's part of a viable market, and succeeds. Profits are made & companies stay in business.
New, rimmed calibers I feel that the general market would reject. Especially with all the cheap .9mm rimless ammo out there. Remember, handloaders, & such,, represent a smaller portion of the general market than most realize.

[Dan Cash]

I have had, over the years, several .45 ACP revolvers and grew to like moon clipped ammo for the reload. The moon clipped ammo is a PITA to carry and easily damaged. Same goes for speed loaders. The DA .45 ACP revolver with auto rim ammo is a fine piece of equipment, the SA revolver does not need special cases to work. Bottom line, market forces have created the situation we have today and, to me, the choices are just fine as they are.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Digging way back in my fuzzy memory, didn't S&W or perhaps Taurus once sell a 9mm Parabellum snub that had a cylinder ratchet specially designed to hold and eject the rimless case? If so, the answer is not in cartridge design, but rather revolver design. If it had achieved a high level of success/demand it would still be with us. The current crop of 9mm and .38 Spec. have similar ballistics and performance, and the .38 snub remains so popular, that the manufacturers probably don't perceive a market.

DG

[Gray Fox]

If I recall correctly, S&W made basically a model 10 4" RB with that ratchet arrangement under contract for the Israelis. I think some went to France, too. Charter Arms has done something similar with their Pug in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 acp. I have one of the .45s and sometimes it's a bit fidly to load, but ejects reliably.

[reddog81]

I’m a fan of moonclips. Out of the 6,000 to 8,000 rounds I shoot every year going back the last 10 years the gun that has seen the most use is a S&W 929 revolver. I usually bring about 20 loaded up moonclips when I take out the 929. The moonclips are basically cheap magazines. I don’t get how people can hate on moonclips for revolvers when functionally they are better than magazines in the fact they not only make the gun easy to load they make keeping track of brass as simple as possible.

One of the main selling points for 9mm or 45 ACP revolvers is that they use the same ammo as the most popular handguns out there. Using highly specialized, hard to get, expensive ammo is not a positive thing.

Rimz moonclips are plastic clips that can be easily loaded and unloaded by hand if the metal clips are too difficult for your fingers. I use both stamped metal and Rimz clips. Once you build up hand strength and get the right technique down the metal ones aren’t that hard to load and unload without the use of tools.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I don't hate them at all! I've got a cutdown S&W 1917 (3") that I used to carry when I worked in armored trucks. I used the full moon clips, and carried a HKS speed loader pouch with two stacked on top of each other in each pouch pocket. Those, plus one in the revolver, totaled 30 rounds. Very fast to reload, and at qualification I could shoot 6, reload, shoot 6 more before most of the Glock guys could empty their magazines, and have a higher score! Never a stoppage, although the Glock guys seldom had one either. When you remove the fired cases from the clips and load them with new ammo it's kind of a pain, but is greatly assisted if you have a tool for the purpose.



DG

[rintinglen]

There are several revolvers that use 9mm luger ammunition, either with or without moon clips. Ruger makes the LCR, Taurus and Charter Arms all make compact, snubby revolvers. The Charter Arms entrant is said to not need moon clips, similar to the old S&W 547. I believe S&W still makes the 929. Guns are also available for 10 MM, 45 ACP, and I think 40 S&W as well.

All of which dilute the call for 9 mm Federal, 40 AR, 10mm Rimmed, or other such cartridges. Even the 45 AR is not exactly flying off the shelves, despite there having been made many times the number of revolvers that use it, than any, or all of the others combined.

[Bigslug]

I guess my preference would be the Auto Rimmed version of whatever round we're discussing, with the moon clips and auto ammo as the emergency backup. . .

Of the notions I put forth in my OP, I think the most intriguing combo would be the .45ACP / Auto Rim / and hypothetical Auto Rim on a .45 Colt case. This would provide the performance range of the .44 Special through .44 Mag with the added ability to run your 1911 ammo in it. I have one of the Ruger .45ACP/Colt Redhawks - nice concept, but it kinda fell flat for me with the proprietary moon clips (not 1917 spec) needed to shoot & extract the ACP.

Basically, of course, I'm pondering the same concept applied to 9mm and .40 diameter projectiles. The owner of said guns would not need to mess with the rimmed version at all if desired.

What I see when I look at my copy of Cartridges of the World is that we have dozens, indeed hundreds, of rifle and handgun rounds that evolved over a century out of experimentation or nationalism, but at the end of it all, we ended up with a relatively tiny number of functional performance categories. This concept - maybe - puts the those categories even more into one gun, with duty and defense in the same launch platform as the hunting magnum.

Maybe not simpler for those of us already committed to the legacy cartridges but. . .

At least answer me this: Am I making more sense than the .30 Super Carry?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

[QUOTE=Bigslug;5626548 At least answer me this: Am I making more sense than the .30 Super Carry?[/QUOTE]

Absolutely!

DG

[Gray Fox]

I have a 10mm Ruger Match Champion and TK Custom finally worked out just how thick the moon clips had to be in order to shoot .40 S&W in it reliably. I have one of the TK moon clip loading tools and the correct moon clips for 10mm and .40 so it makes sense while both types of ammo are available. It also makes sense not to throw hard-to-find 10mm brass into the gravel and weeds, too. Chrony testing by others has shown that both calibers in the Match Champion don't lose much in velocity compared to a 5" 1911.

I'll bet that if S&W used the model 69 L-frame platform in both barrel lengths for a moon clip capable 10 mm/.40 S&W that it would sell enough to satisfy the bean counters. I'm sure TK Custom would make the clips and a bushing for their loading tool, too. GF