1873 Wincester 44 W.C.F Loads

[BoBSavage]

, it’s an old valuable rifle, made for Black Powder & soft lead.

Smokeless powder not being used in black powder arms is a myth.

[Frank V]

How long since that powder has been available? The lock up on the 73 isn’t as strong as later rifles. I am aware that replicas are available in .357. The key word, replica.To each his own. The pressure curve on smokeless is a lot different than black.

[BoBSavage]

How long since that powder has been available? The lock up on the 73 isn’t as strong as later rifles. I am aware that replicas are available in .357. The key word, replica. To each his own. The pressure curve on smokeless is a lot different than black.

Actually the pressure curve is only different when loading for velocity, not pressure.
For a correction, modern replica Uberti 73's are also chambered in 44 Magnum, not just the 357.

On top of that, there is the actual ammunition/powder combinations throughout the years for all old black powder cartridges, not just the 44-40. Actually early modern replica Uberti 73' had/have a weak link...no pun intended, a pin (VTI-Uberti Part #104) that was not offered in the original 73'. Later Uberti 73' and all original 73's had a tab, (VTI-Uberti part #721) Uberti Firing pin Extension Stop, of which is much stronger. The 44 Magnum uses no different parts.

The early smokeless powders created less pressures than the black powder loads. The nitroglycerin powders were bulky but dense, but used to replace black powder, as previously mentioned. As powders were improved, the 73' was still approved for smokeless loads....even today.

Not just limited to the 44-40, other Winchester loads as well, Winchester catered to the old guys and their black powder rifles more so than did other ammo and arms manufactures. The only loads Winchester did not approve for the 73' types were those 38 W.H.V. and the 44 W.H.V. cartridges of which were manufactured for the Model 92' from 1903 to 1938 and sold until 1945...some 35 years. Ironically Dupont (till 1912), then Hercules Sharpshooter powder was used, just a higher charge than those used for the black powder rifles...to include the 73'. This powder was used by Winchester for several cartridges from 1903 to 1938. After WWII, Winchester transitioned those cartridges to the Ball and flattened ball powders, then transitioned to flake powder by 1978...still approved for the 73'.

[hpbear101]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTEVLB-PZdM&t=3s

An informative video on using smokeless in BP era Winchesters.

[Frank V]

Thanks hpbear101, that is informative.
Blowing up bbls. wasn’t my concern but damaging actions. Actions can stretch on older guns, the steel & heat treatments weren’t what we have today.
When we see a modern bolt action blown up it’s not normally the bbl. but the action. A little stretching creates excessive headspace.
We may not see a catastrophic failure, but a gradual stretching of an early gun. I don’t want to start a huge debate, but suggest caution with these older guns.

[BoBSavage]

Thanks hpbear101, that is informative.
Blowing up bbls. wasn’t my concern but damaging actions. Actions can stretch on older guns, the steel & heat treatments weren’t what we have today.
When we see a modern bolt action blown up it’s not normally the bbl. but the action. A little stretching creates excessive headspace.
We may not see a catastrophic failure, but a gradual stretching of an early gun. I don’t want to start a huge debate, but suggest caution with these older guns.

There is no need to start a huge debate, sometimes ya gotta just stop and listen to folks that actually know whats going on. Stop shooting high pressures loads, and the stretching will stop. However, sometimes things just wear-out. Nine out of ten times, when the truth is told, folks that encounter those type of problems are actually loading hotter than they realize or claim to admit. Folks need to stop loading for velocity because they will far exceed pressures before original velocities can be reached....thus creating the spiky or higher pressures.

The max smokeless pressures for the original 73' cartridges are close to each other. Loading manuals through the 1930's exceeded the 73' max loads we know today by nearly 3,000lbs. Many of the loading manuals loaded for the proof pressures. Rifles were loaded to 16,000cup and revolvers to 15,000cup for some. That is a far cry form today's factory loads. However, the 32 Winchester 73' action withstood 17,000cup normal loads and was also loaded to 15,000cup for revolvers.

[35 Whelen]

I currently one original '73 Winchester (1886 prod.) and it's chambered in 38 WCF. I've loaded and fired many smokeless loads through it. I also own a '66 brass frame Uberti in 44 WCF. In both calibers my go-to powders are Unique and Herco with no harm at all to either rifle.

In my experience if you want to load for velocity, use as much Swiss 3Fg as you can get in the case. Doing so my old Winchester 38 WCF will run a 192 gr. cast FN just north of 1400 fps, the 44 WCF with a 220 gr. cast FN does just under 1400 fps.

35W

[Frank V]

I currently one original '73 Winchester (1886 prod.) and it's chambered in 38 WCF. I've loaded and fired many smokeless loads through it. I also own a '66 brass frame Uberti in 44 WCF. In both calibers my go-to powders are Unique and Herco with no harm at all to either rifle.

In my experience if you want to load for velocity, use as much Swiss 3Fg as you can get in the case. Doing so my old Winchester 38 WCF will run a 192 gr. cast FN just north of 1400 fps, the 44 WCF with a 220 gr. cast FN does just under 1400 fps.

35W

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[Tall]

Good data here.

https://reloadammo.com/reloading-the-44-40-winchester/

[barnabus]

6.0 grains Trailboss is what i use

[wwmartin]

No one has mentioned bore size. My Marlin 1889 44-40 slugs at .4345. So it's not very user friendly. It won't chamber anything larger than .433. I don't like scrubbing lead and have modern 44-40s to shoot so it sets neglected. I've been told that poli-shot buffer filler could solve the problems but haven't gone there yet.

Bill

[Outpost75]

No one has mentioned bore size. My Marlin 1889 44-40 slugs at .4345. So it's not very user friendly. It won't chamber anything larger than .433. I don't like scrubbing lead and have modern 44-40s to shoot so it sets neglected. I've been told that poli-shot buffer filler could solve the problems but haven't gone there yet.

Bill

Accurate 43-200QL is heeled bullet for .44-40 rifles with large groove diameter and tight chamber neck with adequate lube capacity for black powder. When you order you can specify driving band diameter, if you would rather have a bit larger.

[Ajohns]

Also to maybe try is Buffalo Arms 222gr hollowbase

[Tall]

No one has mentioned bore size. My Marlin 1889 44-40 slugs at .4345. So it's not very user friendly. It won't chamber anything larger than .433. I don't like scrubbing lead and have modern 44-40s to shoot so it sets neglected. I've been told that poli-shot buffer filler could solve the problems but haven't gone there yet.

Bill

I use .427 diameter bullets from Bear Creek. My Uberti Flat Top Target didn't like the modern .429" bullets either.
https://www.bearcreeksupplybullets.com/44-40-205