I’ve seen two pump shotguns fire when the pump was worked. A Mossberg 500 and a Winchester 1200 or 1300. Both for the same reason the owners had hunted with the gun in a hard rain and not cleaned the guns.I can’t remember if the first shot fired normally or if they had dry fired the guns when they put them away the year before. The firing pins were rusted tight in the forward position
Again, I get the safety aspect, and I even agree with every condemnation of the shooter, but I'm trying to find out if a pump can be altered, and, if so, in what way? If...if...the firing pin was frozen in place due to dirt, or even intentionally, wouldn't that account for the gun firing when the bolt was closed? Or, could the sear be modified with the same result?
I know...God knows I know...the shooter should have checked to see if the gun was loaded. I know.
Occam's razor...maybe he did have his finger on the trigger. But, what if he didn't.
"The firing pins were rusted tight in the forward position."
There's a possible answer.
An improperly done 'trigger job' can do it. If too light the sear can be knocked off by the jarring of the slide movement.
45_Colt
And has a distinct sound when entering the carrier.Originally Posted by Finster101
"Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the face!" - Mike Tyson
"Don't let my fears become yours." - Me, talking to my children
That look on your face, when you shift into 6th gear, but it's not there.
Per Forensic Gunsmithing - the 870 has the famous two piece Remington trigger which sometimes goes off when the safety is released.
unSafe by Design?: Forensic Firearms Investigations
by H.J. Jack Belk and Bill Rogers
Britons shall never be slaves.
1. The story is the trigger wasn't pulled. That may not be reality.
2. As a "knowledgeable person" they should have been able to specify the "modification". What was the modification?????????
3. When they opened the action they SHOULD have seen the shell on the lifter???????
Way too many missing details and way too much ignorance in this "story" to give an accurate assessment.
If the trigger was lightened to the point it followed down when the action was slammed shut that would be one possibility.
Same for a protruding firing pin. The issue with that is if the shell fires before the bolt is fully locked the action may be damage. Fixed/stuck firing pins tend to do damage unless in a blowback action or designed to fire open bolt.
Since there were two looking at the shotgun and at least one witness that meant there were three people involved that apparently shouldn't be around firearms.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 09-08-2023 at 02:02 AM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
That would be the Remington 700's.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
Yes, those too. I was relieved to find my cheaper old Rem 788 was considered safe.
Britons shall never be slaves.
Yeah, some older designs are just not up to snuff. A friend acquired an old Marlin 1898 12ga. pump that has the nickname "The Widowmaker" because they are so unsafe by today's standards. Their primary weakness was an ability to accidentally fire when the bolt/slide is not locked,...but they also were known to occasionally have the firing pin safety features fail and slam-fire when the trigger was NOT depressed. Many newbies thinking they can get into SASS competition inexpensively by using one of these old Marlins, only to learn they are specifically banned from use in SASS events because of their reputation. Lots of cheap shotguns have rusted away in closets and basements for decades, and you might never have heard of that particular brand or model before because they were like the cheap "Saturday Night Specials" of the inner city;...mass marketed for the lowest price point with the cheapest materials to the poorest buyers, and out of business within a few years because of liability concerns.
I'll never forget the time one of my mother's tenants left behind an old Raven .25acp pistol when they moved out and skipped on their rent. I loaded it up with 6 rounds in the mag, pulled the slide back and let if fly home (finger off the trigger, by the way) and got a nice 6 round burst of full-auto til the mag was empty.
That sort of thing happens with cheap guns.
When democracy becomes tyranny, those of us with rifles still get to vote.
OK. I noted that.1. The story is the trigger wasn't pulled. That may not be reality.
I never spoke to him or met him. I don't even know his name. But that question is the meat of my post: what could the modification have been?2. As a "knowledgeable person" they should have been able to specify the "modification". What was the modification?????????
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.3. When they opened the action they SHOULD have seen the shell on the lifter???????
The only ignorance that I see is the inability to grasp the meaning of my post. I'm not looking for an assessment of this incident. I'm asking the question, "Can a pump shotgun be modified to fire when pumped?"Way too many missing details and way too much ignorance in this "story" to give an accurate assessment.
For the record, there were two people in the room. One knew nothing about firearms. The other one was the shooter.
The Winchester 1911 shotgun that earned "The Widowmaker" title. https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/s...ld-gun-review/
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
Maybe - asking if it could be modified to pump fire might have saved a lot of BS. Same for asking the knowledgeable person what was modified?
The issue is that to pump fire the trigger has to be pulled than held back. If the trigger was not pulled or held back a bad trigger job or worn/broken parts would be the most likely cause.
Pre 1975 Ithaca's37's, Winchester 97's, Winchester Model 12's and a host of other pumps without disconnectors will "pump fire". Remington 870's like a lot of other pumps can be modified to pump fire.
Pump firing is different than slam firing but the differences are often confused.
Fixing the firing pin to remain protruded is an unknown for safety and or function since the bolts may not be fully locked. I have seen two shotguns that fired with the bolt unlocked. Both required extensive repairs.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 09-07-2023 at 06:50 PM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
I never spoke to the "knowledgeable person." I think he lives on a grassy knoll.
As far as the first part of my post - that was all background. if I had just asked the question about modifying a shotgun, I would have been hit with statements such as, "That would never happen."
So, I added background. MISTAKE.
On said shotgun, if the modifier modified the firing pin to protrude in the fire position- yes, it would slam fire probably. Like an open bolt submachine gun…..
The Raven mentioned probably had a broken/ stuck firing pin causing the FA burst. Dry firing a Raven is taboo because the firing pin doubles as the ejector and they can break as a result.
I’ve fixed a few of them for friends that were trying to master the trigger….
They’re good little pistols otherwise.
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Battis,
Without knowing what make or model it is almost impossible to give a good answer to your question. You can look into the magazine to see if any rounds are there, but that doesn't tell you if one is in the chamber.
Good that only a dresser (and maybe a couple of sets of skivvies) was damaged.
The it has been modified statement doesn't make any sense to me, without saying what was modified.
I was an Armorer for a lot of years and right off the top of my head, I can't see how to modify a generic pump to fire as the action closes. Most of them will jam during feeding if the firing pin is protruding.
Robert
I have an old M10 Rem pump shotgun that I quit using when it started firing when the action was closed on a loaded round. It has a worn out sear. It is possible he did not pull the trigger. Someone closing the action without checking whether or not the gun was loaded is negligent
We may never know what really happened yes the gun was handled improperly at least it was only a dresser and some of the contents lost .
I will add another pump shotgun to the list of guns that fire "IF" the trigger is pulled when a new round is chambered and that is my J.C. Higgins which was made for Sears by High Standard . I forget whether my High Standard 18-7 RIOT gun does the same if I remember I will check it later. Funny thing is because of my proper training I had never noticed the old J.C. Higgins fired when racking in a new round my son found out when he fired it .
When I think back on all the **** I learned in high school it's a wonder I can think at all ! And then my lack of education hasn't hurt me none I can read the writing on the wall.
Yep, most probably a paper hull that had swelled up in the chamber, racked the pump, didn't look inside,or if they did, they didn't look in the barrel, and racked it closed with finger on the trigger. Boom
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Any pump shotgun I ever used (Winchester, Stevens & Mossberg) could easily be checked by simply opening the bolt. IIRC correctly, the Winchester and Stevens we had WOULD fire upon pushing the slid closed, IF your finger was on the trigger pulling the trigger back.
The only way a pump will fire is by closing the action . . . . so any way you cut it, they just didn't just open the bolt to see if it was loaded - THEY RACKED THE ACTION. As pointed out, NOT AN ACCIDENT - NEGLIENCE.
I had a friend do the same thing with a 12 gauge pump - bought it for home defense and loaded ie in the bedroom to put it in the closet. He ended up discharging it into the ceiling - NOT AN ACCIDENT - NEGLIGENCE. He called me to tell me about it as it scared the manure out of him. By the time I got done chewing him a second one, I'm sure he had to make an appointment with a Proctologist.
Yea . . . there could have been a mechanical issue with the firearm . . . but the biggest problem was the loose nut HOLDING the firearm. 1st question - why was the shotgun loaded and in the house? If for self-defense, fine. 2nd question - why was someone obviously unfamiliar with it handling it?
Firearms are not "toys" to be played with inside a building - if the story is true, they can thank God that it was a dresser and not another loved one. I have very vivid memories of when I worked Ambulance and when worked Fire Rescue when I was on calls for firearm fatalities in houses, that were not self-inflicted, where a loved one was killed by a firearm discharge. Not only does those involved with there shooting have to live with it, but every first responder as well who responds to such a call.
Never ceases to amaze me how when such a thing happens, it's always the "firearm's fault". Moral of the story . . . if you aren't familiar with a firearm . . . . don't go duck hunting in your house . . .
In the thread, it clearly stated that the holder of the shot gun was familiar with firearms. He just failed to clear the chamber and stuff happened. At least he only shot up the dresser,.....This time.
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