Accidental discharge of shotgun

[Battis]

I got the story from an eyewitness;
Two guys examining a pump shotgun in a house (I'm not sure of the make or model).
The guy holding the shotgun pointed the gun in a safe direction and worked the pump (finger not on or near the trigger). Shotgun went BOOOOOOOM into a dresser.
No one was hurt.
So, a knowledgeable shotgun person took the shotgun apart and said that it had been modified.
I've also read that the firing pins can get stuck if the gun hasn't been cleaned.
This might be a dumb question (I don't have a pump shotgun), but how would a shooter know if a pump shotgun is loaded without working the action?
And, how would you know if it's been modified?

[FISH4BUGS]

There is no such thing as an "accidental" discharge. It is a NEGLIGENT discharge. OK kids, flame away!
Most pumps have a bolt release (not sure if that is the right term) that allows the action to be opened. Typically it is located near the trigger guard.
I don't see how a shotgun can be fired if it is being opened properly.
Stranger things have happened though.

[JSnover]

Some newer models might have a loaded chamber indicator - a little red or orange tab that's visible when there's a round in the chamber (I've never seen one). Other than that, the way you described would be the only way.

[G W Wade]

To me you just open it!.. It fired when they closed it without looking for the shells. First why was it loaded? Looking in the loading port will show if shells are present. Just basic safety IMHO GW

[avogunner]

There is no such thing as an "accidental" discharge. It is a NEGLIGENT discharge…...

Absolutely 100% accurate. I’ve never heard an acceptable explanation on how an unintentional discharge was an “accident”.


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[Battis]

Accidental, negligent, whatever. I'm not asking to argue or point fingers, just to learn. Why was it loaded? Unfortunately, the previous owner has passed, so we can't ask him. The family knows nothing about the guns he owned. Have you ever worked the action on a pump shotgun in a store?
The incident should not have happened, but it did.

[country gent]

Any thing mechanical can fail from wear neglect age. When checking a pump action you open it and look not open and slam closed and then leave it open while handling it. Pumps and semi autos are notorious for smaller ejection ports to check thru Meaning you have to make a point of seeing the empty chamber.

Older pump actions didnt always have a disconnector so they can be "slam" fired by design.

A machine is made to do a job but the maim mangle and mutilate is built in we have to stay on our toes to control them

[NSB]

Absolutely 100% accurate. I’ve never heard an acceptable explanation on how an unintentional discharge was an “accident”.


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100% in agreement.

[Rapier]

The knowable shotgun person was not so knowable, obviously. Legal term: "The act speaks for itself."

A pump or auto with the bolt closed is always, always loaded, until you, yourself determine it is not loaded, as are all guns, for that matter.

The pump guns and autos have a bolt release, that does not involve pulling the trigger. You should always point the muzzle in a safe direction, activate the release and open the bolt by hand, holding the bolt open, if necessary, look into the chamber, at the lifter feed tray and into the magazine to make very sure the shotgun is "clear" of all ammo before you close the bolt or handle it. Most really knowable shotgun folks lock the bolt back, before handling the pump or auto shotgun so it can not fire.

Actually in my opinion, this sounds more like a pump was left without a round in the chamber but the mag tube full, then the clown picked it up, racked the pump, thus loading it, in the process, then hit the trigger, but 110% of the time, the gun fired all by itself, he never did anything, except picking up an always loaded gun, without clearing it, and playing with it.

[Battis]

I’ve never heard an acceptable explanation on how an unintentional discharge was an “accident”.

OK, I get it. I really do. Take the Accidental" out of my post's title. How about, "******* Discharge of a shotgun."
Those responses add nothing - zero- to what happened and how it happened.
I'm looking for technical info, not emotional opinions on the incident.

The knowledgeable person I mentioned is not the one who fired the shotgun. He's the one that disassembled it and determined it had been modified. That act speaks for itself.
The shooter did not touch the trigger. These are all facts that can be refuted if you want, but that's what happened.
Maybe, if I had asked, "Can a pump shotgun be modified to fire when pumped?" I could have saved alot of BS.

[rockrat]

I believe its called a disconnector and makes it where you have to release the trigger to re-set it in order to fire again. I do not know if you remove it that the gun can fire again without releasing the trigger. I suspect it is probably designed to not fire if the sear disconnector has been removed. Wonder if the gun had a "release trigger" installed, to where it fires not when you pull the trigger, but when you release it. Wonder if it could have been a high primer that went off when the action was slammed shut.

[RickinTN]

I teach the clay target sports and many young shooters along the way. I met a new student along with his dad one day. Dad had taught the boy to unlock the action by pulling the trigger. All is fine as long as the chamber is empty. If it's not, then you have that negligent discharge. I can't imagine teaching a kid this.
Take care,
Rick

[Dusty Bannister]

I suppose it is possible that the magazine was empty. I understand that the shot gun had the slide cycled, which to me means unlocked and then closed. There is no mention of looking in the chamber, or even sticking a pinky in the port to see if a shell might be stuck in the chamber.

The owner had passed, who knows how long a shell might have been in the chamber, perhaps slightly expanded or other wise stuck so the extractor failed to remove the shell. I have always been taught that the correct way to check for a loaded weapon was to open the action, LOOK in the chamber and make sure no fresh round is chambered when closing the action. It sounds like the gun handler failed to look, just shucked the action, nothing fell on the floor so assumed all was well, until he discovered it wasn't.

[country gent]

As I said early shotguns didnt have the disconnector, throwing the pump forward with the trigger back would fire them when they locked the hammer would drop. I believe the ithica 37s were the last to have the disconnector added. But the trigger still has to be held back. Other wise it would require a mechanical failure to fire. Even a modification to allow firing with out the trigger pull I would consider unsafe and a failure. This is akin to wiring the triggers back on a old hammer side by side

[dverna]

Some pump shotguns (my 1897 is an example) will fire as you close the action if the trigger is held back.

I do not know enough about them to determine how just operating the action would cause it to fire.

As to the gun being stored loaded, my M500's are kept loaded for SD. If the need arises, I want the weapon ready to do its thing. Nothing wrong with doing that if the people in the house know the "house rules". Plus, if a person treats every gun as if it is loaded, the "house rules" are not necessary.

I used release triggers for many years but they require the trigger to be activated to fire. It fires when the trigger is released...not pulled. It would not cause the incident described.

My opinion is the guy had his finger on the trigger even if he swears differently. Easy mistake to make for some folks. A famous actor swore he did not pull the trigger, but we suspect differently.

[Battis]

I gotta say that allowing such a negligent discharge is totally stooopid. I know that I double and triple check a firearm to make sure it's not loaded, as most shooters do. Even if the shotgun was somehow modified to slam fire, or the firing pin was frozen in place (maybe on purpose), if there's no shell in the gun, it won't go boom.
Not knowing much about pump shotguns, I was curious as to how you could check to see if it was loaded. If I had handled it, I would not have worked the pump, simply because I don't know enough about them. I do not know the "shooter" - all I can say is that he was lucky that day (lucky regarding the outcome) as were the others in the room. At least he pointed the gun in a safe direction.
As far as being modified - I'd like to talk to the guy that made that determination but I'm staying away from the incident completely.

[Finster101]

My experience is limited, but I have never seen a pump gun that did not have a release to open the action. It should have been opened and looked into. The shell waiting to go into battery would have been very obvious at that point.

[white eagle]

Safety first unless it takes to long
was their school of thought at that point
always follow safety rules when things can get you hurt or killed
Check the chamber and the magazine if you don't know what those are
you should not be handling a firearm until you do know what they are
there are no accidental discharges

[trebor44]

Nothing wrong with keeping a loaded weapon, you just have to treat it as such. Anyone can have a negligent or accidental discharge, blessed are you have not had the thrill of one YET! Kind of like vehicle infraction tickets, just a matter of when. Yeah this was stupid beyond belief but given we now live in the ideocracy culture, it is understandable and believable!

[farmbif]

sure sounds like negligence all around. good thing they didn't point it at one another when handling. but its easy enough to be sure a gun is not loaded, failure 1,
the gun was modified. failure 2, seems these days everyone and their brother is assembling an AR or printing their own Glock and they think they are a gunsmith and try their luck in doing god know what to every other gun they can get their hands on, failure 3.
some people who are wholly irresponsible have no business handling guns if they have not been properly educated about how to handle a gun safely.
its almost getting scary to buy a previously owned gun without thoughouly checking the whole thing out to be sure bubba didn't have his grubby little hands on it.