Crimp for 40sw

[justindad]

Do you need case lube when you push a case through the Lee Carbide FCD?

[1006]

I never could get good results with the Factory Crimp Die. It over sized, “Coke Bottled”, the middle of my case. I use a standard taper crimp die on semi-auto pistol ammo, and a standard roll crimp die for revolvers ammo. The other Lee Dies have all worked quite well.

[Oldfeller]

Randy,

Don't you apply a small bell mouth form to the mouth of the case when loading up either a lubed lead or power coated bullet? And you don't have to remove this bell mouth form before calling the assembled round complete?

Putting the assembled round just into the mouth of the FCD carbide ring just to take care of the initial bell mouth does this without crushing the bullet or affecting the assembled round. Going all the way down into the FCD to use the thimble controlled tapered insert can crush the bullet (and will affect case tension again when you pull it back out of the FCD while removing any bulges you have created with your crimp activity) -- both actions will loosen the case's grip on the installed powder coated bullet.

============================

Isn't powder coat based on a fine power that gets heat fused (melted then cured) in an oven? There are some coating methods that use paint like products, but these are not commonly used for coating cast lead bullets.

I get confused when reading your responses and I have to question again if you are just regurgitating some old knowledge that comes from your old knowledge from the jacketed bullet world. Only jacketed bullets can cram their way into sized cases without at least some insertion bell mouth.

These rounds were slightly bell mouthed then corrected by "first bump insertion" into the LEE factory crimp die for the 40S&W as per the News for Newbies method that you do not care for.


Right click on the image, save as ......, then open the new image then expand it using your favorite software so you can see the corrected bell mouth area clearly. This is not crimped it is the case mouth being straightened and the rest of the bullet body size and the case to bullet grip is not being affected as it never goes into the die.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OF: I guess my explanations are just too complicated for some reading this thread? Reading Comprehension seems to be weak on this thread, which has never been a problem before. I've gotten way too many questions about things that were explained concisely in a previous post just because people didn't understand what was said, and if they'd only read it again they'd figure it out for themselves instead of asking more questions that were already answered.

Yes, I apply a " Flare" to the Case Mouth then the Taper or Roll Crimp removes it and turns it into the bullet locking it in place thus preventing bullet/boolit set back.

Powder Coating is Paint. It is just a different kind of paint, and is usually applied at Industrial Coating Shops that apply Wet Paint and Dry Paint. The powder is a Polymer based (plastic) Substance that adheres to the surface by "Negatively" charging the powder, and Positively charging the work. Then it is heated to melt the powder onto the surface of the work. Did you know that those shops also cook "Wet Paint" to make it dry faster? That is Called "Force Curing."

As far as "Regurgitating?" I can't help it if you can't or won't understand what I say. This isn't a problem for the majority of people who read my Posts, and I post a lot here! Note my Post Count?

Many people just skim over text and think they understand what has been discussed, and then look up and wonder what they just read? I'm reasonably sure that is what if going on here?.

If you don't understand what I wrote, try reading it again. Maybe you'll get it the second or third time thru. That's what I do, maybe it will work for others as well?

I do use many Technical Terms simply because when you are discussing Technical Subjects, you kind of need to use the terms that accurately describe what you are talking about.

Reloading Ammunition is a "Technical Pursuit," and there are "Glossaries" in every "Reloading Manual" that have the definitions of every Technical Term in the Manual. You can't fully Understand what's in the Manual if you don't understand the terms in the Manual. Simple as that, and from the questions I've gotten in this thread I can see that is the case.

I have many Magazine Articles I have read literally 10,20 as many as 50 times before I got everything that was communicated in the article. Sometimes I re-read an article just for fun while sitting on the toilet.

If I don't understand something I just read, I go back and Re-Read it until I do. Everyone should try this cuz it really works.

Randy

[Oldfeller]

Randy, I don't lack comprehension, you are leaving out steps in your explanations.

You also like to apply non-standard terms in order to bridge over your skipping of key steps and your lack of explanation after the fact. Flare for example is a plumbing term as it is commonly applied to copper tubing. Flare is a massive tubing mouth expansion to mate up to threaded force compression tapered fittings, Flare is relatively huge -- around 10-20% of diameter. Not thousandths of an inch as we are talking about.

Your bombastic style does not educate a newbie, it trashes them. Especially if they trust your attempts at after the fact "explanations" as being accurate or factual.

Folks, you listen to whom you wish to listen to. But at least try to have somebody who does not omit key steps, grabs illustrations from other venues (yes, the jacketed bullet pics and the "flare") and does not try to brow beat you into accepting his errors as "technically accurate" post mortum because he can't stand to be wrong.

A mature male can admit to being wrong occasionally.

Now, where am I being wrong? Mainly by continuing this discussion with Randy as this is wasting my time and effort.

I have finished my baggies of 40 S&W bullets and put my dies away and put my press all away now.


Bye y'all. Take care.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Sir: Good for you, You beat me to it as I was done with this thread as well. But in closing I'd like to answer your question of "Where are YOU going wrong? "

You are the classic example of someone who reads the First Sentence in a post and takes exception to "What He Thinks it said" and then goes off on a tangent explaining what I'm doing wrong using different terms that mean the exact same thing.

I have nearly 9,000 more posts on this site than you do, and If I was so full of it, I would have been banned long ago. I was writing about this very subject over at Trapshooters.com when Don Verna told me about this place in 2008, so I came here and my first post here was talking about blowing up Glocks chambered for .40 S&W with Bad Federal Cases. (See Pics I posted in 2008.)

Please Read and Re-Read this last post as many times as is necessary for you to understand what I am saying.

Thanks Randy

[1006]

You don't need to measure squat ... put a moderate Taper Crimp on the boolit , with the seating-crimping die that came in the set .
Take the round out and press on the boolit with your thumb ...hard ... if it moves , add more crimp ... if it don't move , press the boolit nose against the edge of your bench ... firmly but not all Magilla Gorilla on it ... if it moves , add just a little more crimp ... if it holds firm , you got it .
So many times people post / books give dimensions but fail to take into cosideration boolit diameter .. that dimension is only good for that diameter boolit and cast boolits are larger than J-Words ... taking measurements is a waste of time ...testing the boolit with thumb and bench edge ...that will tell you the story ! I've loaded handgun ammo for 50+ years and never needed a FCD ...the die that comes in the box will work fine if you adjust it correctly ... Dummy Rounds can help you set adjustments (case with boolit , no powder - no primer ) once you get seating depth then crimps worked out semi-auto's can be seat/taper crimp in one step .

If you don't have one , a Kinetic Bullet puller can be used to pull those bullets that slide back into the case ... a couple light taps brings them forward and you can add more crimp (turn the crimp die down) and try again .
Gary

If you use this technique combined with a chamber check gage as a common sense double check of your work, you will get good results.

I found Randy’s attempts to help Deerslayer and the rest of the thread participants illustrated a great desire to help, and everything he said looked correct to me. Although, I am not a fan of the FCD and it’s carbide ring-plenty of other guys like it. I have loaded 40’s for a very long time-before Gen 3 Glocks had light rails.

You do need a crimp to prevent setback in a Semi-AUTO Gun. There is no groove because it is a taper crimp, not a roll crimp. The mouth of the case should “slightly” bite into the bullet to secure it in place. Powder Coated bullets are a relatively new thing, and they bring some issues, mainly: not being able to take a good taper crimp without becoming inaccurate. Personally, I overcrimp 40’s for safety’s sake.

[1006]

This seems like a decent read on setback.

https://www.recoilweb.com/bullet-set...rs-160844.html

[45_Colt]

And a thread on setback by shooters & reloaders:

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/1...ullet-setback/

45_Colt

[dearslayer]

Well folks I guess I needed to put more crimp on these lead boolits. I went to the range yesterday and fired about 50 to 60 rounds. The last magazine that I fired I measured the first round in, which would have been in the bottom of the mag. It measured 1. 1315. I fired nine rounds doing a MAG dump and then I measured the last round to see if there was any setback. Low and behold there was. My measurement now was 1.1111. I came home and adjusted the remaining rounds that I had loaded which was around 30. The crimp now measures .4175 instead of around .425 as previously measured. Will see how this crimp holds up at the next range visit. I'm learning a lot from all the input folks. Thanks to all.

[dondiego]

Well folks I guess I need it to put more crimp on these lead boolits. I went to the rain yesterday and fired about 50 to 60 rounds. The last magazine that I fired I measured the first round in which would have been in the bottom of the mag. It measured 1. 1135. I fired nine rounds doing a MAG dump and then I measured the last round to see if there was any setback. low and behold there was. My measurement now was 1.1111. I came home and adjusted the remaining rounds that I had loaded which was around 30. The crimp now measures .4175 instead of around .425 as previously measured. Will see how this crimp holds up at the next range visit. I'm learning a lot from all the input folks. Thanks to all.

Be sure to compare your accuracy between the two as well.

[justindad]

Thanks for the progress update. If you still have setback after increasing the crimp, then try a harder alloy (eg 92-6-2 hardball). With the harder alloy, you can use a smaller case expander plug without your brass swaging the boolit down.

[dearslayer]

Thanks for the progress update. If you still have setback after increasing the crimp, then try a harder alloy (eg 92-6-2 hardball). With the harder alloy, you can use a smaller case expander plug without your brass swaging the boolit down.

Is there an optimal hardness for lead boolits for handguns or does it depend on the pistol and caliber itself. I'll do a search on mixing lead for hardness but in the meantime for anyone have a link to provide for quick reference? I normally use 50%COWW and 50% SOWW with a couple ounces of pewter mixed in. I don't remember where I read this combination or if it's proper. Maybe it's contributing to some of my issues??

[justindad]

The minimum hardness needed to prevent setback will depend on the caliber, age of brass, lube type, etc. Even the length of the bullet that is seated in the brass matters. (The interference for between lead & brass creates a pressure between the brass and lead. The force required to move the bullet is pressure x area x coefficient of friction. The area is the circumference of the driving band times the length of the driving band that is encased in brass). Even the nose geometry will matter, as that affects how hard the bullet hits the feed ramp - a round nose will have a glancing blow and a WFN has more of a direct impact.
*
I had bullet setback in a .45ACP with copper plated bullets, which use soft lead. I experimented with a range of crimps from very light to cutting the plating and the all set back on me. Same brass and same process with my own cast lead boolits has not given setback. The softest lead I used was 50:50 COWW:SOWW, which gave a slight amount of leading so now I’m only using COWW + 1%Sn. Your .40 is different from my .45, so I don’t know how soft you can go. You might be fine with what you have now. You just gotta tinker & test some more.
*
On the other hand - I’ve never read of anybody else having this issue. Maybe it’s just me

[Dusty Bannister]

I see so many people having trouble with things like this. I started with revolver rounds and 30-06 back in the mid 70's. First pistol case was .380 and never had these issues with home cast. Then the 45 ACP, still no troubles other than simple die adjustment. Then the 40 S&W and the 9MM Makarov and 9MM Luger. Still no problems. But, I go 1 or 2 Thou over groove diameter, conventional bullet lube, and conventional lube groove bullets. Many of those having trouble seem to use the TL styles, the NLG styles and powder coated bullets. Not saying that this is the issue, but I do not plan to ever PC or play with the NLG style bullets. If it works for others, I am happy for you. Enjoy and have fun.

[David2011]

After reading the entire thread twice:
Randy Buchanan didn't write anything that I questioned in the least. I also started loading the .40 S&W in 2007 but I've loaded about 100,000 rounds; all but a few of which have been shot in USPSA competition in an STI Edge with the STI match barrel. I measure my crimp occasionally to verify that the die adjustment is still good. My press for .40 is a Dillon 650 that has a dedicated toolhead for each caliber. I spot check practice ammunition with a Dillon case gage and check every match round. The case gage has a smaller chamber than the match barrel so function is all but guaranteed if cases pass the case gage. I don't recall ever having a failure to feed or extract except when an extractor broke after about 50,000 rounds.

A while back I enquired on here regarding the 40sw and Win231 powder and an issue I was having with the FCD,and I haven't really reloaded any since that time. Not enough time to do everything that needs doing in life I guess. So I have managed to step into it again and I went back to that older thread and someone had mentioned that it's important that the crimp measure .0416-0.418. Given the issue I was having with the FCD I decided to crimp using the seating die and it seemed to be going ok until I revisited that thread and checked the current crimp. The boolits are not moving this time round and I thought the crimp looked ok but when I measured, the crimp was 0.425. The plunk test in my barrel works fine and drops freely in and out. What am I missing. Should I try to squeeze the crimp to 0.416-0.418?? Perhaps I had best check the calibration on my caliber today to be sure it's correct. Can't do it now cuz I'm at work.

That .416-.418 measurement doesn't show up in any cartridge specs I can find for the .40 S&W. SAAMI's standard is .423" or 10.74mm. As long as you're passing a case gage you should be good. It's a better test than a barrel.

Refer to the first image below. The gage diameter at location #1 is where the crimp is applied. Mine measures 0.420” - some folks do a few thou more and some a few thou less. The crimp length for this pictured round is 0.035” long. It depends on your particular crimp die, but a crimp length anywhere in the range of 0.015 - 0.050” would not surprise me.

When I mentioned that you pivot the cartridge in the jaws of the calipers, the pivot point is where the crimp length ends (0.035” away from the case mouth for this exact round). The arrows at gage diameter #1 are directly on the case mouth. Notice that you can see light between the very edge of the case mouth and the calipers - that gap is only a few thou wide. The pivot axis could also be located at gage diameter #3, depending on meaningless imperfections, or intentional brass taper, etc. more often than not, my rounds pivot at the end of the crimp length.

Gage diameter #2 shows where the brass has sunk into the lube groove. Whether or not this is visible depends on your brass and the lube groove width. This is not meaningful if the case is not swaging down the boolit.

Gage diameter 3 is at the bottom driving band of the boolit. This could be the pivot axis instead of at the very end/bottom of the crimp length. Either location is fine, so long as the case mouth is not on the pivot axis.

Some folks might prefer that the round pivots on the case mouth. I don’t. Consider what you’ve read, test for proper feeding & chambering in your gun, and decide for yourself.

Attachment 317721

In this next image you can see how the case mouth is measured. I try to gasp the round so that only half the thickness of the caliper jaws is touching the case. If your calipers are tilted at all, the measurement will be off - that is why this measurement is tricky to get right. Also keep in mind that the crimp length is tapered, making it nearly impossible to truly contact the case mouth.

Attachment 317722

IMO measuring perpendicular to the axis of the cartridge and just a hair's breadth aft of the mouth is the only way to measure the mouth. Measuring directly on the mouth can lead to measuring a burr instead of the true diameter. ALL semiauto case mouths should be left square and never rounded off with a roll crimp die. They all headspace on the case mouth and as has been said already, bad things can happen if the case mouth goes past the end of the chamber.

I have the stem from the Lee 40sw sizing kit and I tried using it this morning to push a case all the way through the crimp die. Damn I thought I would snap the lever on the little Lee press that I use for decapping and sizing. The case went in most of the way easily but then stopped. It took a lot of force till it finally thumped through with a BANG. I don't think I'd want to doing ANY cases like that. Is this normal????

At first I tried pushing some cases through a Dillon sizing die. It thumped pretty hard as the web passed through the carbide ring. I have a Magma Case Master Jr. now and the die is honed to the correct diameter to size the Glock bulge. It's much smoother.

Do you need case lube when you push a case through the Lee Carbide FCD?

It sure helps. I use a little spray lube with my Magma Case Master Jr. and it reduces the effort required greatly.

[dearslayer]

Take a look at this crimp and tell me if it looks ok. I'm using a brand new Taper Crimp Die from Lee. I just wonder should it be smoother? I am noticing some small amount of brass shavings/ dust, in my boolit collection bin. Not a lot but enough. As I understood it there should be absolutely no shavings ( or so I was told ) Is this normal? Oh BTW I measure around 0.418- 0.419 on the taper. I'll try these later this evening when I go to the range.

Sent from my LYA-L0C using Tapatalk

[justindad]

If it only happens the first time you reload this brass, then I wouldn’t worry about it. If it happens the second time you reload that same brass, I would change your crimp die out for a Redding die. Redding dies aren’t all excellent, but their Profile Crimp die is my favorite crimper.

[dearslayer]

If it only happens the first time you reload this brass, then I wouldn’t worry about it. If it happens the second time you reload that same brass, I would change your crimp die out for a Redding die. Redding dies aren’t all excellent, but their Profile Crimp die is my favorite crimper.

I know the machining marks on the inside of the die are pretty pronounced. I tried polishing the inside a little bit last night with the Dremel and and a rubber tip but it didn't work as well as I would have liked it to. I ordered some new felt tips from Amazon and they should be here today. Hopefully I'll be able to polish the inside enough that it will make a difference. If it doesn't I'll definitely keep your suggestion in mind.

[gloob]

I've seen setback on my uncrimped cast 223, when the flat-nose boolit hangs up on the feedramp. But there's very little area of contact to hold a 223 bullet in the neck. I still don't crimp my cast 223, which I only shoot in a bolt gun. I just examine ammo after a feed jam and toss if there's damage.

I do crimp my 223 jacketed ammo into the crimp groove on the bullet.

I don't crimp any of my semiauto pistol ammo, to date, unless it's needed to get the cartridge to drop feely into the chamber. 40SW, in particular, has a huge area of brass to bullet contact... so much that I found it is impossible to pull a 40SW cast bullet seated in new, squeaky clean brass, using any kind of bullet puller. So I don't really worry about setback in semiauto handguns.

If my pistol ammo is jamming on the feedramp, I'm going to change boolit, anyhow.