You would if they were heavy revolver rounds.Originally Posted by Dusty Bannister
45_Colt
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You would if they were heavy revolver rounds.
45_Colt
Granted, but you changed the conditions. So perhaps you could also add tube magazine rifles and whatever other factors not stated by the OP. This is not thread drift, this is thread surge.
45_Colt
Well I adjusted the tamper Crimp die enough to achieve the 0.416-0.418 as previously discussed. I could feel the compression on the case and boolit through the press lever. I pulled the boolit to see what it looked like and to measure. It seems that measuring wasn't really necessary ( I did Anyway ..0.3935 ) just by looking at the huge crease/indented ring on the boolit indicating way too much compression.
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You use the same load I do, works fine in my XDm40.
hit me in the face -- Mine will sometimes toss them up, not back very often. Remember, there is a bullet below that is pushing UP. Visualize the slide unlocks, barrel tilts, as case clears chamber there is upward pressure that can push base up off the bolt - momentum of the case flips it back. Other problem with slide speed can cause dents in case body or mouth (too fast and hits slide).
Whatever!
How thick is your brass?
*
With the bullet seated, but before you apply any crimp - what is the case diameter, measured at the bottom driving band of the boolit?
Since 0.008” is a giant loss in size - what is the diameter of your boolit before you seat it?
Boolit diameter is 0.4010. Brass is 0.010.... diameter at the driving band before crimp...0.4230...
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Pull the boolit out of that case without crimping, and then check the diameter. Need to double confirm your taper crimp operation truly is what swaged your boolit down 0.008”.
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The case mouth should be crimped to 0.423 MAX (this number will vary depending on the brass thickness). You might be able to go bigger than 0.423, but you should then do a series of tests & measurements to determine how much bullet setback you get, and if your gun jams. (Cycle the round through your action 3 times and measure the change in OACL - the maximum allowance will depend on how hot your loads are.) Personally, I would go for 0.421 - 0.422”. (Pull crimped boolits and check for a meaningful reduction in size.). You have boolit setback competing with both cartridge feeding and boolit swaging… just gotta find the optimal spot. You may also need to harden your lead, but I would not go there just yet.
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The fourth decimal place on those calipers is not reliable. If you need that level of precision, then you need micrometers or maybe an analog Starrett caliper.
You are seriously misinformed! NO, the crimp is there to lock the bullet in place and prevent set back !!!.
And Deerslayer: What kind of crimping die are you using? Something is not right as the crimp die should not be going more than a Few .000 below the mouth of the case, and therefore shouldn't be sizing the Case or Boolit. The crimp itself shouldn't be more than about .015 long.
The flare gets removed as a byproduct of the Crimping Operation not the main point of the operation.
A proper crimp doesn't size the boolit. it merely turns the flare from outside to inside which results in the Cartridge Mouth creating a step on the boolit that acts as a stop to prevent Boolit Setback, and by extension prevent a Spike in Chamber Pressure which can be very dangerous.
What is the ID of your case after Expanding and Flaring? It should be about .002 smaller than the Boolit. IE: .002. Case Neck Tension on the boolit. The crimp itself should not be altering the outside diameter of the case and by extension the diameter of the boolit. Lots of times with soft boolits you will get some reduction in diameter of the boolit but .008 = something else is wrong!
And like Justindad said, you need a Dial Caliper as the Digital ones are not as accurate and harder to verify that you got a Repeating Dimensional Reading. You need to be able to see the needle move so you can tell when you got the smallest reading across a given diameter. This takes lots of practice!!! Even after being a Machinist for nearly 50 years I still take the same measurement several times to insure I got a correct Reading. You with "not 50 years experience," will need to do this as well..
Randy
Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 09-05-2023 at 05:11 PM.
"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
Sorry it will be a day or so before I can get to check some of these suggestions. I'm doing 12 hour night shifts and it sucks. The Crimp die I'm using is a brand new Lee Taper Crimp die that I just got last week. I thought I was putting a proper crimp on by just adjusting the die to just crimp the very edge of the case which it was and it was passing the plunk test and the boolit could not be depressed by hand against my bench no matter how hard I pushed. I only re adjusted it after it was suggested that I try to achieve the .416-418 measurement. That obviously didn't work out because I had to screw the die down so far that it compressed the boolit the get that measurement.
In the next couple days I'll try to re read these post and report back with answers. Can't do much from my office at work unfortunately......
Respectfully
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There’s reports of the Lee FCD swaging down boolits, but that has not been my experience. Might be worthwhile to crimp with your seater for (in two separate steps). I wouldn’t bet on that causing the 0.008” swage, but it’s worth a look.
I stopped using the FCD because the case had a hard time getting pass the carbide sizing ring hence why I purchased the taper crimp die. It doesn't have the carbide sizing ring. Also if you read back a couple of posts you will see that it only got swaged down when I made the adjustment to explore what was happening.
No need to scream and shout, I can hear just fine at normal conversation levels. Besides, screaming and shouting won't make a false statement true.
The boolit is locked in place via case tension. If not then something isn't sized correctly. Either the case diameter is too large for the boolit, or the boolit is too small for the case diameter.
On top of that, dearslayer (the OP) isn't having any type of set back issues. Read his posts and you will see what the real issue is.
45_Colt
I just quickly seated a boolit,no powder or primer and then pulled the boolit to measure without crimping at all. The boolits measures 0.401 same as before being seated. Now remember the taper crimp die is NOT swaging down the boolit if I adjusted it to just removed the bell on the case and apply the slightest crimp. My previous post whereby the bullet was swaged down .008 was only due to the fact I was trying to get the diameter of the case down to 0.416- 0.418 as suggested earlier so to achieve that, I had to turn the taper crimp die down quite a bit. That was the experimental part of this equation. When I get more time I will do a dummy round with the taper crimp die just removing the bell and I will cycle it through the action 3 or 4 times to see if there's any boolit setback. Right now unfortunately I have to run out the door for another 12-hour night shift. Work sure does get in the way up the fun stuff.
(OK,,, You are seriously misinformed! NO, the crimp is there to lock the bullet in place and prevent set back !!!.) How's that?
As far as me putting up false statements? I have Warned You and if you think you know what's best in this case then knock yourself out.
Please note my Post Count? I've been here since 2008. and I first posted about this subject back then when I first arrived here after posting about loading the .40 S&W over at www.trapshooters.com.
If the bullet is only locked in place by Case Neck Tension, then there would be no Factory Cartridges with Crimped Bullets. How come EVERY FACTORY ROUND IS CRIMPED???
As far as Deerslayer???? According to his last post above this post,,, He Mis-understood that the whole case was to be sized down to .416-.418. It is NOT!
That measurement is at the very end of the case mouth not the whole case!!! No wonder he is swaging his boolits down?. The rest of the case is untouched.
Go back a Re Read the instructions I posted on how to measure the Case Mouth. If you case measures .423 with the Boolit seated it should read that after the crimp is placed.
I have been loading .40 S&W since 2007 and have Loaded 20,000+ rounds and the crimp has been to the correct amount without any Case Deformation whatsoever. I have used a Lee Factory Crimp Die the entire time on my Dillon 550 B. When I start loading a new batch of cases I always check the Crimp Diameter at the case mouth and sometimes have to make minor changes in the the Top Adjustment Screw on the die to get back to the .416-.418 dimension. This is usually necessary because of changing from Plated Bullets to Cast Boolits.
Randy
Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 09-06-2023 at 07:19 PM.
"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
Just reading this at work so my question is, when I measure the crimp for the 416-418 should I be measuring at the very edge of the case where it actually tapers down or should I be measuring near the bottom drive band of the boolit? Perhaps I'm not measuring correctly or in the correct spot..... I'm just trying to learn and eliminate any possibilities. I try to learn something from everyone's experience and advise so it's all a little overwhelming but I want to stick with it to the end.(OK,,, You are seriously misinformed! NO, the crimp is there to lock the bullet in place and prevent set back !!!.) How's that?
As far as me putting up false statements? I have Warned You and if you think you know what's best in this case then knock yourself out.
Please note my Post Count? I've been here since 2008. and I first posted about this subject back then when I first arrived here after posting about loading the .40 S&W over at www.trapshooters.com.
If the bullet is only locked in place by Case Neck Tension, then there would be no Factory Cartridges with Crimped Bullets. How come EVERY FACTORY ROUND IS CRIMPED???
As far as Deerslayer? He's got a Die Problem or a Die Setup problem. I can't fix that for him because I can't see what he is doing wrong, but I'm pretty sure he's doing something wrong or else his cases wouldn't be getting sized down with the crimp.
I have been loading .40 S&W since 2007 and have Loaded 20,000+ rounds and the crimp has been to the correct amount without any Case Deformation whatsoever. I have used a Lee Factory Crimp Die the entire time on my Dillon 550 B. When I start loading a new batch of cases I always check the Crimp Diameter at the case mouth and sometimes have to make minor changes in the the Top Adjustment Screw on the die to get back to the .416-.418 dimension. This is usually necessary because of changing from Plated Bullets to Cast Boolits.
Randy
I have been sitting here running a LEE powder through expander (using a shell case based custom dipper) followed by a bone stock LEE bullet seating die and that is followed by a LEE factory crimp die all on a old manual style three hole LEE Rifle Turret press --- manually progressing the head to the next stage while you guys continue to snarl at each other.
I have intentionally removed or defeated all the auto indexing items as I found the occasional original problems that cropped up with LEE equipment got multipled by using LEE auto indexing into situations that could not be recognized and fixed in a timely enough fashion and resulted in lot based teardowns.
This means my current 3 holer acts like a single station press, with a fairly repeatable rapid manual die changeover. Think of it as 3 manual presses set up in a row --- it allows you to troubleshoot quicker and cleaner if you think of it as 3 manual presses in a row.
Exampes I will speak about are powder coating that is applied on standard LEE designs, the 145 grain shoudered .401 bullet and again on the heavier 175 grain truncated cone .401 bullet. If it is LEE, I am currently doing it and dealing with it right now as we speak.
I will also offer tips and tricks that allow crazy things like instant bullet pulling on a 3 hole press with no mess or fiddling around.
I needed to do such tricks because of the very non-standard stuff I tend to do with my 40 caliber Glock 22 and my Beretta 92 pistols --- using slow for caliber pulled powders such as Bartlett WC820 milsurp (30 cal carbine pull down powder). 13 grains is a lot of slow powder (compressed a fair bit) and these wind up being "close to 10mm" power levels when the bullets get heavier.
These are the LEE based hard cast bullet mythical "bear loads" for the 40 S&W ......
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...coated-bullets
I am not going to spoil this thread. I will be discussing your LEE based processing questions (also offering help with powder coated LEE heavy and light bullets) but over here.
My rules are very simple -- be polite and nice to everybody. Don't type in all caps, that is impolite. Don't bring a feud to me, I simply don't reply to somebody who has an axe to grind.
My name is Oldfeller, I predate both the 40 S&W and all the versions of this current list and actually go back 3 levels back before that to the precusor lists that were email based. I became list active when the 8mm and 6.5mm milsurps began to cry out for a decent cast bullet mold. I helped start the very first version of these older lists and I remember when your main head dude was a newbie. I set up and ran the first versions of the LEE group buys. I set up the first Shooters stocked custom items that still remain. I have been banned, slammed and kabammed over time and really don't care for much as going over all this stuff yet again is a public service in my eyes.
"Be NICE and polite" is the opporant word with me.
Last edited by Oldfeller; 09-06-2023 at 08:27 PM.
All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.
Look at the Pic. The Crimp is where the Black Line is at the mouth of the case. You can see that it only extends about .015 below the case mouth.
The Area below that on this case measures .423 where the bullet is Seated.
Just below the Base of the Bullet, the case measures .419 which is the product of Full Length Sizing the Case. The whole case was .419 before the bullet was seated.
When the bullet is seated it forces the case open to .423 That is .401 bullet +.011+.011 case wall thickness, which gives this Cartridge a Neck Tension of .002 per side
The top edge of the case where the crimp digs into the boolit measures .417 at the very top edge. This all means that the Crimp intrudes into the bullet .003 all the way around and creates a step on the bullet that prevents Bullet Set Back during Recoil and or Chambering.
Read this, and Re-Read this until you firmly understand it, This is all there is to it.
Hope this helps your understanding of this subject. Sorry about the pic, the site will not allow it to be erected.
Randy
Randy,
Does this work with a soft lead bullet with a coating of polyester on it without cutting the coating and crushing the underlying lead? I can actually see the this thing is crushing into a jacketed bullet multiple thousandths which are non-functional force levels in this powder coated venue.
When using cast bullets that are polyester coated you have to start out with a start mouth taper from the taper expander portion of the powder through taper die that is pushed out just barely big enough to get the bullet to stop rocking. When you slowly seat the bullet, most of the taper you originally saw in the case mouth disappears as it converts into side grip support.
Putting a seated bullet into a Factory Crimp Die detects 3 bumps going into the carbide portion right at the mouth.
First bump (should be mild) is the taper lip that remains getting ironed flat.
Second bump (mild) is the "mid-hump" that comes from ironing the taper lip to flat.
Third bump is the material bunched up by the butt end of the bullet pushing its way into the case.
Now here is the news for Newbies --- for polyester coated cast lead bullets you don't want to push the the bullet into the FCD (Factory Crimp Die) mouth carbide portion all the way. You do not want to engage the bullet down deep inside the FCD (Factory Crimp Die) until it actually hits the thimble driven taper portion as that deep into the FCD action likes to step by step crush the polyester coated cast lead bullet. Once crushed, the bullet and the powder will not stay in place during repeated "loading from the magazine" cycle events. The crushed bullets will self-pull, then the slightly longer bullet then gets jammed into the rifling and then it gets pulled completely on extraction and the powder charge gets dumped in the chamber on extraction.
When you work with Polyester coated lead you must actively avoid the second two insertion bumps and try to stop with only the first "remove the taper lip" bump. I find that going to the second and third bumps gives you the "resized in the case" self pulling polymer bullet that folks are trying to tell you about.
Randy, do you get that we are talking about completely different worlds here?
Nothing much from your jacketed bullet world actually works out here in powder coated soft lead world for very much ......
Randy won't accept or consider other's ideas, he sticks with his preconceptions no matter what others may say.
Last edited by Oldfeller; 09-10-2023 at 02:16 AM.
All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.
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