25 acp versus 380 compact

[Captain O]

Had she shot him at the base of his throat, the goblin would likely have drowned in his own blood. (And the world would have been be a better place for it).

[lar45]

Was the mak a 90's redesigned Biakal model or an older model swapped barrel and possibly mag home conversion job?

The Mak was a factory new 90s Baikal model in 380.

[rintinglen]

If you're looking for analysis of your methods, you've chosen two pistol mechanisms that are apples and oranges, regardless of caliber.

In my world where most of the primary full-sized handguns are striker fired or single action, I see a lot of tendency to slap triggers when sights approach correct alignment on the target. You can get away with that to a point at short range, but the technique does not translate well to the DAO system of the LCP or hammerless revolvers, which take a different kind of effort. The more apt comparison would be to run your FN .25 against an FN 1910, Colt 1903 / 1908, Glock 42, or even a DA-to-SA Walther. At that point, the more manageable grip and longer sight radius is likely to call the victory.

Stuff and nonsense. I was not comparing operating systems, I was comparing my ability to operate a tiny pistol quickly, in two different calibers, using the smallest examples of each that I have. But even if I was, a Glock safe action or a Walther PPK is not comparable to a single action striker fired pistol. The point I was hoping to make, was that the smaller pistol has worse sights, is harder to manipulate, and more difficult to shoot well. All this coupled with the inferior ballistics of the smaller cartridge militates against one being able to direct a cloud of minescule projectiles into a 3 inch circle at other than bad breath range, and penetrate sufficiently deeply to effect a disabling wound.

[Soundguy]

The Mak was a factory new 90s Baikal model in 380.

Nice... Best of the 2 choices imho.

[fecmech]

Being an old PPC guy myself the P3AT works just fine for me. I would not consider a.25.

[lar45]

Nice... Best of the 2 choices imho.

My other Mak is an East German in 9x18mm .
I like the German Mak much much better than the Russian one, I just wish ammo was more available.

[Captain O]

Burying a Buffalo Bore 50-grain .25 at the base of a goblin's throat should generally stop a threat. (Rupturing a larynx will almost certainly end a confrontation and deliver a miscreant to the nearest human refrigeration unit).

[rintinglen]

An ice pick to the eye socket will effect the same result. The problem is delivering the projectile to the desired point.

[Captain O]

An ice pick to the eye socket will effect the same result. The problem is delivering the projectile to the desired point.

I can launch a flurry of .25" 6-7 "icepicks" at a range of 24 inches within 3-4 seconds. Believe me, I did my homework before I plunked down $400.00 for an unfired example of a pistol that is more than 39 years old.

My Bauer is absolutely perfect! (Trust me, this pistol is immaculate).

[poppy42]

My other Mak is an East German in 9x18mm .
I like the German Mak much much better than the Russian one, I just wish ammo was more available.

I shoot and carry a Makarov and /or a Polish P64 in 9x18. I haven’t bought factory ammunition in about six years! I make my own brass from 9 x 19 and I Cast Boolets. Both guns are extremely dependable and extremely accurate the accuracy in part due to the fixed barrel.

[charlie b]

I've also had a P64 for a couple decades now. It is a good carry size for me.

FIL had a baby Walther. My hands are long. But, that is at best a one finger grip. With my longer hands I could not grab the gun well with the one finger and still get the trigger finger near the right place. 5 shots later, two BIG red grooves in the back of my hand and I gave up.

A PPK size gun (or snubbie) is the smallest I will carry. They are small enough to fit in a pocket if so desired, light enough not to drag down pants, and big enough to get a good grip even when distressed. And that doesn't even take into account the better performance of a .380 over the smaller .25acp round. FWIW, read up on Fackler's testing of the .25acp on close head shots.

One thing to note is the OP also started out with the hand on the grip in his pocket. If he started with hands outside the pocket the results probably would have been much worse time wise.

Clothing? Grew up in Phoenix. Been in southern NM a long time. I wear long sleeve shirts, long pants and wide brim hats.

[FergusonTO35]

Several years ago; attempted armed robbery at a quickmart near me. Female clerk shot the dude in the face with a 25 - hit a front upper tooth and plumb busted it. He ran off. Showed up at a local hospital.

If the tooth is all the damage he received then I guarantee that was an ammo failure. No way a 50 grain FMJ at nominal 750 fps wouldn't continue to do damage to all that soft tissue in the oral cavity/pharynx area.

[Captain O]

If the tooth is all the damage he received then I guarantee that was an ammo failure. No way a 50 grain FMJ at nominal 750 fps wouldn't continue to do damage to all that soft tissue in the oral cavity/pharynx area.

Correct! This, indeed, was an ammo failure. Had it been running at optimum speed, it likely would have blown on through the back of his oral cavity and lodged in, or near, his spine. "Mr. Bunghole" would either be relegated to a respirator or die because his spinal cord would have been severed. (When you damage the brain stem, you're going to be in deep caca).

[rintinglen]

When you only have 65 ft. lbs. to work with, stuff like this happens. In the fall of 1990, a gang banger was brought into Rancho Dominguez Emergency with a 25 bullet in his forehead, it had failed to penetrate into his brain, though it had caused a mild concussion. In ballistic gel tests, the 25 routinely fails to hit the 12 inch minimum that the FBI prescribes.

[beemer]

There is no contest when considering the power level of the two rounds. My Beretta 950 is very small and reliable. If that happens to be important at the time carry it, I do. Maybe not the best but definitely better than being unarmed. When you get older you can't out run or fight a young man but you can be dangerous.

I usually carry inside the waist band appendix. For that reason I want a DAO only. I went through several smaller carry guns. I made full circle, started with a 38 snub and ended up with a 638. For several reasons I prefer a revolver. Not against a 380 auto, just never found the right one I guess.

[FergusonTO35]

When you only have 65 ft. lbs. to work with, stuff like this happens. In the fall of 1990, a gang banger was brought into Rancho Dominguez Emergency with a 25 bullet in his forehead, it had failed to penetrate into his brain, though it had caused a mild concussion. In ballistic gel tests, the 25 routinely fails to hit the 12 inch minimum that the FBI prescribes.

I completely agree with you, however I think that if the ammo had actually been up to advertised speed in either cited case then the miscreants would have been on ice. The performance, or lack thereof, is more on par with a small ball bearing from a slingshot not pulled back all the way.

[FergusonTO35]

There is no contest when considering the power level of the two rounds. My Beretta 950 is very small and reliable. If that happens to be important at the time carry it, I do. Maybe not the best but definitely better than being unarmed. When you get older you can't out run or fight a young man but you can be dangerous.

I usually carry inside the waist band appendix. For that reason I want a DAO only. I went through several smaller carry guns. I made full circle, started with a 38 snub and ended up with a 638. For several reasons I prefer a revolver. Not against a 380 auto, just never found the right one I guess.

I would never say that .22, .25, .32, or even .380 is ideal but have to carry what you can carry. There are plenty of examples of perps who were thoroughly ventilated with the latest and greatest 9mm, .357, .40, and .45 rounds and still continuing to fight. Yes, a bigger cartridge is better but it is still no guarantee of anything. And if you are a poor shooter with that caliber then it is almost certainly going to be less effective than a smaller one that you can shoot well.

[rintinglen]

There was a study done by U.S. Medical personnel to determine the wounding capabilities of various weapon systems. I have read that they had determined the minimum force to effect a severe disabling wound to be ~50 ft/lbs. (IIRC, this was in relation to fragmentation weapons, ie, grenades, mortar bombs, artillery shells, etc, but I can not definitively state that: my rememberer is a bit faulty these days.) I believe it is referenced in Textbook of Military Medicine, Conventional Warfare. But I do not know the title of the study I am referring to. However, a 25ACP barely exceeds that standard, so that the least degradation in performance due either to weapon or ammunition deficiency or flaw can result in a less than ideal out come. Given that there are several micro 32's and 380's now available that exceed the energy of the 25 by 2 or 3 times while remaining very small, it takes a very specific set of circumstances to compel one to select a 25 as a PDW.

Now in fairness, for nearly 7 years I carried a Jennings J-22 in a hand cuff case, but that was strictly as a backup to a backup in the case where I had been despoiled of my primary service revolver and my back up had run dry or also been taken from me. However, there were no Seecamps, Keltecs, LCP's, Tomcats, CW380's or any others of that ilk available then. While I have a few 25's, I do not carry them for any purpose.

[FergusonTO35]

The only .25 I have is a pre-68 "Wischo" made in West Germany that belonged to my grandfather. Have the original box of shells for it with $2.99 price tag. I've never fired it and don't plan to, just a keepsake. He kept it in his pocket while working on the farm. He wasn't a "gun guy" by any means, probably just selected the cheapest pocket gun that was in the case.

[BD]

I'm with FrankV, a J frame in my right front pocket, shorts, (chosen well) or jeans.