Use of with results using Waltz die and Paco Accurizer to swage 22LR

[Larry Gibson]

Thought I'd move this over from the S&S forum for further discussion and examples.

I did a lot of research on this and there are mixed results. It will not be a "game changer" for every gun or type of round, but it can improve groups for some guns and rounds.

The one study was 8000 rounds in a variety of guns. The conclusions were:

It will not make match ammunition out of bulk ammunition. In general, groups will improve most of the time, but not always. It will make a more effective hunting bullet with the larger HP.

I've both a Paco Kelly Accurizer and the Neal Waltz die for 18 +/- years and use one or the other on most all my 22LR ammunition exception being the high end 22LR Match I use for 100 yard BR competition. Groups with regular 22LR do improve most of the time. CCI Blazer Is one that is really improved both for accuracy and when HP'd for hunting. The increased terminal ballistics of the larger HP made with both tools and the "Nasty Nose" with the Accurizer can be readily seen and heard.

With the Waltz die when I find the correct amount of swaging and/or HPing I measure the OAL length of the die bottom to top of adjustment stem and record that measurement. Thus, when more of that particular 22LR ammunition is had I simply adjust the die to that OAL and it is good to go w/o any further testing.

With the Paco Kelly Accurizer I found long ago that whacking with a mallet wasn't very consistent. An Arbor press works much better but the one I have doesn't have a "stop" so consistency of the swage, while better than whacking, still wasn't what i wanted. I found a use as an arbor press for an old Craftsman drill press stand [hand drill attached to it, but the hand drill gave up the ghost many years ago] worked much better. With the Accurizer I measure the AOL of the swaged rounds and record the OAL of the most accurate for a particular 22LR brand/type of 22LR cartridges. The drill depth stop of the press can easily be adjusted to reproduce that OAL with a new batch of the same cartridges with excellent results.





Here is the results of a 100 yard test of Winchester "White Box" match 22LR. Rifle used was my Stock Remington M37 {made in '51/'52] with a Weaver T36 scope on it. The inner ring is 1". You can see the improved accuracy as the 22LR cartridge is swaged in various amounts. Still, it does not equal the accuracy level of OOB [Out OF Box] Lapua Midas+ [ottom target].

[Electrod47]

Following Thank you Mr. Gibson

[recumbent]

I too have been using the Waltz sizing die Thanks for the tip on measuring the die. I have the HP, round nose and the eley style.
I have found the best accuracy improvement on bulk pack ammo.

[Larry Gibson]

I too have been using the Waltz sizing die Thanks for the tip on measuring the die. I have the HP, round nose and the eley style.
I have found the best accuracy improvement on bulk pack ammo.

I've found on some Federal bulk [525 a box] the copper plating and bullet nose will crack/split if swaged enough with the HP nose punch to bring all the drive bands to .225. Thus, I use the Eley style to swage the drive bands out and then use the HP punch. Sounds like a lot of extra work but using the Lee hand press I can do the 525 rounds sitting comfortably in my recliner while watching a movie or a couple episodes of old TV westerns and sipping on a cool drink.

In posts 84 and 93 in this thread, https://castboolits.gunloads.com/for...3-Rimfire-Area, you see some of the 22LR ammo used ant the test results. Some of the results was between the same 22LR ammo swaged and OOB (Out Of Box).

[Minerat]

Thank you Larry! I was just going to clean the ad up removing all discussion and now that you have moved the discussion to this area I will post a link and clean it up.

Steve,
Cast Boolits moderator

[jsizemore]

That link takes me to the rimfire page but not a particular thread.

[Larry Gibson]

That link takes me to the rimfire page but not a particular thread.

Try: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...onversion-Kits

I corrected the original post.

[phaessler]

As I was saying before we were moved..... Gave up trying to get a Paco or a Waltz die and did my own thing....

CH4D 22LR seating die, a Lyman M die stem, and some tedious lathe work on various machine screws..... Profound accuracy results and performance on bulk ammo..

[DDriller]

I had never thought of using the Eley style to swage the drive bands out and then use the HP punch. Thanks Larry, I"ll have to give it a try. I use mostly CCI Blazer and CCI Standard velocity rounds.

[uscra112]

I too made my own version of the Waltz tool about 10-11 years ago, and found it gave me significant improvement of commodity ammo up to CCI MiniMags fired from a stock 10/22. It did nothing but harm to higher grade competition ammo, and it made little difference when the treated ammo was used in my competition-grade Ballard. The difference being that the Ruger has a chamber the size of Carnegie Hall, while the Ballard is much tighter. (My tool expands the bullets to a uniform .225", which fills the Ruger chamber better.)

I still have the drawings if anyone is interested. The parts fit into a Lee "Universal Expander" (which it isn't) body. Very simple to make.

Phil

[barrabruce]

Which nose profile works best over all.
I tried a hollow point and a small flat nose.
A hollow point for me gave more womp but a small flat nose was more accurate and gave a bit better effect than the soft lead rn.
Does the Eley nose do anything besides make it look pretty?
I large flat nose does hit above its weight but not for me at range.
Just asking.
I suppose you don’t need to hold onto the rim on the base die if you made one for a press.
Just keep the base flat and clean.
I had some improvement with a basic home made one.
I think I might try and make a better mouse trap.

[sparky45]

I too made my own version of the Waltz tool about 10-11 years ago, and found it gave me significant improvement of commodity ammo up to CCI MiniMags fired from a stock 10/22. It did nothing but harm to higher grade competition ammo, and it made little difference when the treated ammo was used in my competition-grade Ballard. The difference being that the Ruger has a chamber the size of Carnegie Hall, while the Ballard is much tighter. (My tool expands the bullets to a uniform .225", which fills the Ruger chamber better.)

I still have the drawings if anyone is interested. The parts fit into a Lee "Universal Expander" (which it isn't) body. Very simple to make.

Phil

Phil, I'd be interested in the drawings you made.

[dverna]

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/d3/pd...ng-project.pdf

This a long read but may be of interest. Scroll up after clicking on the link.

[barrabruce]

Thanks Dverna for the link.
Interesting.

[303Guy]

I too made my own version of the Waltz tool about 10-11 years ago, and found it gave me significant improvement of commodity ammo up to CCI MiniMags fired from a stock 10/22. It did nothing but harm to higher grade competition ammo, and it made little difference when the treated ammo was used in my competition-grade Ballard. The difference being that the Ruger has a chamber the size of Carnegie Hall, while the Ballard is much tighter. (My tool expands the bullets to a uniform .225", which fills the Ruger chamber better.)

I still have the drawings if anyone is interested. The parts fit into a Lee "Universal Expander" (which it isn't) body. Very simple to make.

Phil

Hi Phil. I would be interested if you don't mind. Thank you.

[uscra112]

Hi Phil. I would be interested if you don't mind. Thank you.

Need your email address.

[barrabruce]

I got my old home made one out and tried it.
I can reform to fill the throat of the chamber.
When chambering by hand the bullet starts to feel about 1/3rd way in and the last 1/8" or so is harder to push into the chamber.
Very hard to extract.
Shoots clean and empty falls out.
Haven’t tested for accuracy yet.

I do seem to rub a little lube off in reforming/chambering and extraction.
Sometimes the lead seems to smear over the crimp space if that makes sense and leaves a shiny ring on the base of the bullet in the case upon extraction.

Should I lube with a smear of bw/vas/

I suppose testing will tell if it improves things any.

Is this it what I should be looking for or just enough expansion so the bullets nudge something in the front when chambered?

Thanks
Bruce

[fiberoptik]

I too made my own version of the Waltz tool about 10-11 years ago, and found it gave me significant improvement of commodity ammo up to CCI MiniMags fired from a stock 10/22. It did nothing but harm to higher grade competition ammo, and it made little difference when the treated ammo was used in my competition-grade Ballard. The difference being that the Ruger has a chamber the size of Carnegie Hall, while the Ballard is much tighter. (My tool expands the bullets to a uniform .225", which fills the Ruger chamber better.)

I still have the drawings if anyone is interested. The parts fit into a Lee "Universal Expander" (which it isn't) body. Very simple to make.

Phil

Me 2!

[uscra112]

P/M your email addys to me, guys.

[GhostHawk]

I have been using a Waltz die to enlarge .22lr for a Heritage convertable .22lr/22mag.

So far at about .224 I have had very good results. Enough so that I am happy with my purchase.

I have been hollow pointing bulk lead nose solids into hollow points and enlarging them from .222 to 224 or thereabouts. Which is all that seems to be needed to make them shoot well.