Low pressure smokeless 12 ga

[Reg]

I have this classy old hammer gun I used to shoot the heck out of with black only because of the twist barrels. Recently I saw where a fellow was shooting smokeless in a old twist barrel and said it was safe because his smokeless loads produced less pressure than black. My first question would be is this possible? What would such a load be and what would be it’s pressure? It was always told to me that black and smokeless developed pressure differently. Black being lower and longer drawn out but smokeless is quick and tends to develops a fast spike in pressure. This faster spike even being lower was what was actually more harmful to those old twist barrels. Now all of this I was told a long time ago and I am wondering does all this still hold true or has time changes it?
If it were actually possible to safely shoot smokeless in my old double 12 ga with pressures less than black I just might break it out for a round of doves.
Ideas? Loads?

[Richard66]

Dont do it just use black powder

[barnetmill]

If the barrels are twisted steel hammer welded to make a barrel, i would not shoot it with any powder from my understanding. From what I understand is that such barrels can rust and no matter what powder can blow out a section when the welds have corroded and are failing.

If you must shoot here are the issues and many think it is safe to shoot them so with a qualified gunsmith and where you find one of those in the USA I have no idea"

“Damascus-barreled shotguns in good repair are highly functional,” Jacob said. “Barrel integrity is the most important— and the least understood—element of shooting vintage Damascus-barreled shotguns. Before you buy a Damascus-barreled shotgun, have a reputable gunsmith inspect your firearm.

“I find that barrels fail inspection from one of three distinct issues,” he said. “The first comes from pitted bores, which are often caused by a manufacturer’s use of soft iron or poor welding techniques.

“Pitting also can come from improper storage over time. If the bores have been reamed to remove rust and pits, then the wall thickness is altered. When excessive amounts of metal are removed, then the barrel integrity is compromised and is therefore weakened. Gunsmiths use micrometers to measure barrel thickness in a variety of places and then compare those measurements with factory specs.

“A second reason Damascus guns fail inspection is because the barrels have been dented while hunting. It’s easy to remove dings from fluid steel barrels, but their removal from twist barrels creates a soft spot and lessens barrel integrity.

“A third issue resulting in failed inspections relates to chokes. Most vintage guns had tighter chokes. Improved cylinder and modified were common, and modified and full were as well. If your candidate has cylinder and skeet chokes, then the odds are high that the chokes have been opened at some point. Each of these conditions is easily assessed by a competent gunsmith with a micrometer.”

Shooting low-compression shells is a must. Thanks to companies such as RST and Polywad, these traditional shells are commercially available.

“Chambers in the 1800s were the standard of the day, 2 1/2 or 2 5⁄8 inches,” Jacob noted. “While a modern 2 3/4-inch shell will fit into the chamber, they pose problems upon discharge. Modern shells feature full crimps and, when fired, the crimp extends beyond the chamber’s length. Damage to forcing cones and hinge pins along with increased compression are a by-product.

“All that is necessary is to shoot short, low-compression shells from companies like RST Shotshells and Polywad, among others.”

Shawn Wayment is a bird hunting veterinarian from Colorado who specializes in treating bird dogs. He isn’t afraid to reach into his gun cabinet and extract a Damascus-barreled shotgun.

“I’ve got seven Damascus guns,” he said. “Two are Parkers, two are Lefevers and three are Frank Hollenbeck drillings. Every one of their barrel patterns is unique, and they’re all gorgeous.

“My first Damascus gun was a Parker GH 16 gauge on an O frame,” said Wayment. “Because it’s a 16 gauge on a 20-gauge frame, it’s light and is considered to be the Holy Grail of grouse guns. I found it at M.W. Reynolds shooting and fly fishing store in Denver, and when I mounted the gun, it fit perfectly.

“After a thorough inspection, I bought it on the spot. I’m a bit more careful when hunting with the Damascus gun, and because I hunt at high elevation in rugged terrain, I’m cautious not to ding the barrels. I shoot RST 2 1/2-inch low compression shells, and I’ve killed one heck-of-a-lot of birds. These days I don’t care if a shotgun’s barrels are fluid steel, Damascus or twist. If the gun fits, I buy it.”

Are brand new shotguns with Damascus barrels available? Graham N. Greener, director of W.W. Greener Sporting Guns LTD, has been making shotguns with Damascus barrels for some years.

“Our company was the last English gunmaking company to make Damascus barrels and production of these ceased in 1903,” he said. “However, we had a stock of these and so we decided to make shotguns with these barrels again and some with steel and Damascus interchangeable barrels. These have mostly been sidelock side-by-side sporting shotguns in 12 and 20 bore. All have been made to individual orders, including pairs and sets of guns. Many are featured on our website.”

There is a reason that Damascus barrels are no longer in current production, and that’s because the quality of available materials is metallurgically harder than before. Still, one gunsmith, Missouri’s Steve Culver, gave it a try.
pistol knife
More at: https://sportingclassicsdaily.com/da...safe-to-shoot/

On the positive side if a Damascus or more properly damascene steel barrel fails normally just a piece of the barrel blows out so the worst that happens is parts of your hand or finger(s) goes with it and you face and eyes are probably ok. You have two hands and 10 fingers and do not need all of them to more or less live a normal life.
Me I would consider lining such a gun to smaller gauge just to be safe.

[Jungle Dave]

The bores need to be quite good and without large pits, shiny is good. Outer finish needs to be good as well. Hold the barrels using one finger under the lump and strike the sides with anything you have on hand that is metal, say a screwdriver or punch. If they give off a dull sound, don't shoot it. If they give a high ring, you may be good to go, but that's as much as I can say without seeing them in person. Just because they give a high ring does not mean you're safe. I said 'may' be good to go. But it will tell you right away if it's a 'may' or a 'no way'. Further close inspection is needed for 100%, but if they meet all this then 90% of the time you're good. I always recommend sticking to black. There are some smokeless loads within range, and while they are good and the stories of bursting barrels do not arise from them, the problem arises over time, as they have a sharper torgue and wear on the lump and bite, which will bring your gun off face. This will not happen quickly and may take years, but eventually you'll have to have your gun brought back on face, which is not a cheap fix. This is the reason you see so many poor doubles off face, because when smokeless came out, everyone used it regardless.

[Reg]

A lot of good information coming out and I do thank you all.
A bit more information. The old gun is of Belgium manufacture but is very high quality with delicate English scroll engraving and gold inlays and one of the finer pieces of French walnut I have ever seen. I can’t do pictures or I would post them.
The barrels have no pitting whatever inside or out and does have the short 2 1/2” chambers. The chokes do not appear to have been modified. I will do the ring test next time I have it out.
I load for it and the last time I did I used the equivalent of a 20 gage load thinking it would keep pressures down. Am not trying to get full power loads for hunting but rather something very light just more to see it will break a close range clay pigeon or two. By going to a light 20 ga. load would it drop the overall pressure?

[longbow]

Some reading:

https://www.rstshells.com/

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums...40772&page=all

https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4763

Post #1
https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=37470
https://parkerguns.org/forums/attach...1&d=1665027856
https://parkerguns.org/forums/attach...2&d=1665027856
https://parkerguns.org/forums/attach...3&d=1665027856

https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1589

https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14

https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16462

https://www.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content...10/ceretto.pdf

I have a W&C Scott & Son 10 ga. Damascus twist barrel shotgun built in 1881. It has certainly seen better days but I have been told by a gunsmith that it is safe to shoot with BP or BP equivalent pressure loads and plan to do that after I do some stock repairs and have the action tightened up.

I know of others shooting Damascus twist barreled guns that have been approved for shooting by gunsmiths. I know of one fellow that has a Damascus barreled shotgun that has been reproofed for nitro loads.

So, the short story is that as long as a qualified gunsmith says it is safe to shoot you will be okay. Note that RST is a commercial ammunition manufacturer that states that their ammunition is suitable for use in Damascus barreled guns in good condition. If there was a significant liability they wouldn't be saying that.

You'll have to make your own decision as to whether you will load for it and shoot it with BP or smokeless after the gun is checked by a gunsmith but it seems pretty evident that there are smokeless loads that are safe for Damascus barreled guns in good condition.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

For what it's worth, I've seen a lot of beautiful Damascus barreled hammer guns on Holts auctions which have been re-proofed for smokeless loads - Like this one:

https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.co...1568&saletype=

As long as the pressure is within safe limits, it doesn't matter much if it's black powder or smokeless, but to reach the same velocity of e.g. 1200 fps, the smokeless load will create a higher max pressure than the BP. Also, you can load BP loads to ridiculous low speed without worrying about "bloopers". With only three different grades of BP, you can load for almost any gun you can think of. Smokeless, not so much. I can count at least seven different Norma powders in my collection - and that's just for rifle cartridges.

[Jungle Dave]

For the old doubles, even the very fine guns, you're looking at actions of 1018 to 1020 steel, so none of the 4130 or special alloys we have now. They just wear more readily. Casing them helped, but that's just surface. With black all is ok. Add smokeless and your average farmer John loading high brass 1 1/4 oz. loads in a 12 and things wear a little. Most of that was done during the transition of powders, the guy goes in the hardware store and see's 12's and gets a box. The ammunition companies wanted to sell shells, and people didn't speak of 'pressures' like we do today, one was lucky to have a tv, so if it was the right gauge and it fired, it worked. Fast forward to the 70's and the old double is rattling a little. I went to school with boys that used the newest high-power shells in their grandpa's doubles and were completely oblivious to any of this. I've seen a lot of burst damascus barrels, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that over 90% were due to an obstruction in them upon firing and had nothing to do with smokeless at all. Sure, they are not 4130 alloy, but they are extremely tough and were proofed in their day, and at least here in the States, one can just re-proof the gun themselves if they have doubts, but it's generally not necessary. The big thing to watch for is going to be those guns that are more than frostily pitted, with questionable pits, and the deal breaker will be between the soldered ribs where water or condensation may have occurred to a degree that it's questionable. And you can't 'see' in there, so that's where a re-proof comes in, or it becomes a wall hanger, or, in some cases one can be sleeved. I have an 11-bore Tolley that was sleeved to 16 and I still use it, although it's a little heavy this way, and I'll never know if it was done due to pitting or because 11-bore shells simply could not be found anymore. But that is a viable option. It adds weight, but does not detract from the pleasure of using a piece of history.

[Milky Duck]

this is the one place where spending the coin and purchasing a set of chamber reducing inserts makes perfect sense...because they supply their own chambers and partial barrels,the whole pressure thing is pretty much rendered a moot point. close range doves,rabbits,ducks are perfectly doable with even the wee .410 and you lot can get heavishot at prices where its actually feasible to use it,so anything is possible even big geese.
but your low pressure loads......that would be cowboy action loads.plenty of them around.

[BrianL]

Another option is making up some 'mini' shells using a roll crimping tool to assemble loads that are equivalent to a 28 ga or so. I use about 5/8 ounce of shot with a stack of cards to fill the case. I will look up my load. The tool is cheap at ballistic Products. I also use this (attached screenshot)light load in my full length shells.

[BoBSavage]

, and people didn't speak of 'pressures' like we do today,

Although this has merit, it is not really completely true. We all know America in rural areas was not very educated at all by 1900. However, educated and ignorant are a bit different. The most uneducated, or illiterates in the old west and early 1900's, would be those typically using shotguns such as sod busters, prospectors and those during the land rush times...folks moving out west. Lets face it, the north-east was probably the most educated during those times, but could also be the most ignorant as well.

Even black powder types were divided into separate categories, so to speak, to keep pressures down due to burn rates needed for a particular application. These would be Cannon, Fg, FFg, FFFg and even FFFFg. Anyone ever try using FFFFg in a cannon in the same why you would cannon powder? Smokeless powder was a bit more confusing, but not much different in layman's terms although a bit more technical.. i.e. Shotgun, Rifle and Pistol smokeless powders...Bulk powders and Dense powders. To keep it simple, bulk smokeless powders were used in the old black powder arms while dense smokeless powders were used in the modern smokeless powder arms.

Even so, Dupont advertised right on the early 1894 "bulk for bulk" powder cans that these early powders created less pressures but maintained the same, if not sometimes more velocity then black powder loads. This was true, especially with Dupont, for those powders used in shotguns, rifles and some pistols. Dupont manufactured Shotgun, Rifle No.1, Rifle No. 2 bulk smokeless powder, of which No.2 rifle was used in some of the larger black powder pistol cartridges.

Many of the older magazines, articles and books speak much of the pressure concerns in such arms from their inception and by 1899/1900, as it got confusing for many that used them. Even educated folks, out of natural ignorance, trying to use shotgun powders in high power rifles got a rude awakening just as folks using pistol powders or high power smokeless powders in shotguns got a rude awaking! The main issue was folks trying to load the powders bulk for bulk like black powder, big mistake for any Dense smokeless powder...not so much for the bulk for bulk smokeless powders.


It is a bit more technical now days, but...

[FullTang]

There used to be a lot of interest in loading very-low-pressure smokeless rounds for old black powder guns, and the powder of choice was PB. However, this has been discontinued, supposedly for lack of demand.

[Reg]

Some really good solid information of all types is coming out and I would like to thank all who have contributed. Myself I plan on printing it all off and keeping it with the old double in case a grand kid wants to pick up where I leave off.
Now another thought that might be a simple answer and I see where it has been brought up at least once is to purchase a set of chamber inserts. Chiappa I see makes them at a very fair price.
Has anyone tried a set in 20 ga. or even 410?

[Eddie Southgate]

Briley sub gauge tubes , not cheap but they will keep you safe.

[barnetmill]

Some really good solid information of all types is coming out and I would like to thank all who have contributed. Myself I plan on printing it all off and keeping it with the old double in case a grand kid wants to pick up where I leave off.
Now another thought that might be a simple answer and I see where it has been brought up at least once is to purchase a set of chamber inserts. Chiappa I see makes them at a very fair price.
Has anyone tried a set in 20 ga. or even 410?

Perhaps titanium alloy or scandium could be used to keep the wt down. That would be a question for people well versed in metallurgy.
It used to be the ideal southeastern quail gun was a light wt and short 16 ga double. Putting sleeves that altered the balance would defeat the purpose of the gun.

[BrianL]

Do you folks understand the danger to be primarily in the chamber? I was considering a pair of the Short Lane inserts but was not sure that the chamber was the only concern.
https://www.gunadapters.com/categori...eatured&page=1

[barnetmill]

Do you folks understand the danger to be primarily in the chamber? I was considering a pair of the Short Lane inserts but was not sure that the chamber was the only concern.
https://www.gunadapters.com/categori...eatured&page=1

The chamber seems to be the most common place for failure with the forcing cone maybe the area of highest pressure.

[BrianL]

The chamber seems to be the most common place for failure with the forcing cone maybe the area of highest pressure.

That makes good sense. Do you think that the smaller bore of the adapter's entrance into the forcing cone would alleviate the most of that pressure?

[barnetmill]

That makes good sense. Do you think that the smaller bore of the adapter's entrance into the forcing cone would alleviate the most of that pressure?

Not sure about alleviating pressure, but the better steel of the insert will certainly withstand pressure a lot better for the areas that it reinforces.

[longbow]

Do we get a story with the pic of the blown chamber? There is always a story.

Was that shot with low pressure smokeless load? 2 1/2" chamber gun shot with modern 2 3/4" ammunition?

The barrels certainly look to be in good shape... except for the piece missing.

Some details would be beneficial for all.

Longbow