https://www.trapshooters.com/threads...-smith.856635/Originally Posted by longbow
Drew Hause · #12
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https://www.trapshooters.com/threads...-smith.856635/
Drew Hause · #12
So, from that post they were using 2 3/4" modern loads in a 2 1/2" chambered Damascus barreled gun!
"The shells were 12g and the study compared 2 3/4" shells in 2 1/2" chambers with a short and a longer cone. The rise in pressure was 385 psi to 1216 psi.
1216 could be significant if the pressure of the shell was already at the SAAMI max. of 11,500 psi +/- 900 psi ie. 1,200 + 11,500 + 900 = 13,600 psi"
I have no doubt that many Damascus barreled guns would fail with that combination! Possibly some more modern guns as well!
The OP asked if he could use low pressure BP equivalent smokeless loads in his Damascus barreled gun, not modern loads longer than the chamber.
Again, if the pressure is equivalent to BP and the gun is sound then the answer seems to be "Yes!" If it is safe with BP then it will be safe with BP equivalent pressure smokeless loads. Why wouldn't it be?
And, again, if there was any significant liability companies like RST would not be selling smokeless loaded ammunition that is rated to be used in Damascus barreled guns.
Longbow
A modern gun should not fail from 2,100 psi over max pressure. I would want any gun that I used to hold together to at least 50% over max pressure and with shotguns used for hunting likely a lot more.
But we are adults here and make our own choices.
I took a look at the Chiappa tubes but didn’t see where they have any form of extractor. Did I miss something or do you carry a screwdriver around to pry the fired shells out?
Facta non verba
I totally agree, a modern gun should not fail from 2100 PSI over pressure but that pic is of a Damascuss barreled gun shot with a modern 2 3/4" load in a 2 1/2" chamber so the chamber pressure was about double what the Damascus is rated for.
Longbow
A damascus gun in good shape as it left the factory 120 years or more ago should not catastrophically fail from such a load. My concern is during hunting that things can happen to elevate pressures. Mossbergs are cheap and a lot safer even if they have absolutely no class at all. I would not mind using them for trap shooting with low pressure correct shells and I would go black powder. But again big boy rules.
Damascus bbl'd guns are routinely Proofed/re-proofed in Europe right along with steel bbl'd guns.
They get no special loads for proofing. They get the same Proof Loads as any other.
The gun either passes or fails.
Most guns fail proof upon examination anyway,,loose lockup, excess headspace, etc. Not from a 'blow up'.
Shooting damascus or other twist steel bbl'd guns is a choice of the shooter obviously. There is plenty said on both sides.
Yes there are smokeless shotshell loads , recipes right from the mfg'rs of the componenets that will give you chamber pressures at and even below what BP loads will register.
You have to follow the recipe to the letter with no changes.
The favorite powders for those loads are fast becoming extinct.
PB and 7625 were favorites. With them (especially 7625) 12ga loads could be made up with common components to give chamber pressures in the 5000psi range. There were even a few listed in the high 4000psi range.
Velocitys were no joke coming in at 1100fps with 7/8oz loads.
10 and 12ga will give those low chamber pressures. The small bores are not so easy to get those lower pressures with smokeless but there are some recipes out there
Pezio checks of the pressure curves show a near perfect match with the BP loads. So the fear of high pressures further down the bbls is not there IF you follow the recipe(s).
It's all been done over and over again. Data to please the Damascus smokeless powder shooters. The nay-sayers still contend that every damascus bbl'd gun is a handgrenade ready for you to detonate by pulling the trigger.
It's like the 'Shoot it/Don't' shoot it back and forth over Low# 1903 Springfields. It never gets to a diffinitive answer. Just more dug in opinions lined up on each side with talking points in hand.
Thought, time and accurate measurements must be gotten from the bbl's themselves.
Not every gun is a good candidate for shooting no matter what the bbl material is.
Bores that have been honed out and over bored, thinned walls, extended forcing cones, extended chamber lengths and other 'repairs' such as hammered back into place bulges in the tubes should be carefully looked at and for.
Removing bbl wall material just to make them shinny and sparkle back at you when you look thru them is just material & strength lost.
Start with a better gun if it's pitted badly.
There's no certificate of 100% safety that comes with any firearm. Anything can happen and does even with modern mfgr'd guns.
I've seen many that have come back into their factory with split bbl's, banana splits at the muzzle, cracked breech blocks and all sorts of damage.
Some from the customers fault, others just a failure of the materials used to make them.
It happens. Just like bridges collapsing, bungee cords snapping and planes falling from the sky.
Lots of people shoot damascus and have no issues. Lots of people hang them on the wall.
Read up,,then chose for yourself.
If you feel the least bit unsure about it,,then don't.
I use 800x for my vintage guns ,look at the load data for it you will see the pressures are much lower than other powders and velocities around 1150 to 1250 fps are achievable.
My Boswell damascus barrelled sxs pigeon gun is one I use regularly on small game .
Before this thread goes way down under, I wanted to mention some things that I had failed to last time. I use black in mine only because, 'for me', it is easier. I never enjoyed the finer points of getting smokeless loads where they needed to be, and I suppose I'm lazy in that regard. I would, however, use smokeless loads of 7000psi or less in any of my guns without hesitation. I simply do not have any on hand. 7000psi is generally agreed upon to be the limit, although I've seen some push it to 8000psi, but I would recommend sticking to 7000 or below. A rise of 500psi to 1000psi can come from using a 2 3/4" shell in a 2 1/2" chamber. Plastic wads add pressure too, by 500psi or more. I've always stuck with fiber wads because the plastic ones do not mix with black, but I'd even prefer fiber with smokeless. Forcing cones are steeper, instead of the long and gradual on modern guns designed for plastic wads. One more thing, and perhaps the one thing I kicked myself for forgetting, was that most of us do not use abusive loads due to the barrels alone, but because of the wood. I have some on the verge with hairline cracks that have formed, and I'd like to prolong repairs or complete re-stocking as long as I can. The barrels will take it if in good shape, but the stocks at this age will not. 7000psi or under smokeless is good to go with sound barrels. I stand firm on that statement.
Last edited by Jungle Dave; 09-28-2023 at 11:59 PM.
What I did was order two of the Chiappa 410 adaptors. They did require a tiny bit of fitting at the rim but I fitted them tight to allow for any future wear. No. They do not have extractors. The original extractor on the gun raised the adaptor and the fired shell out of the chamber by about 3/8” and there is a milled relief that you set to the 10 or 2 position depending on which barrel it is in and so far all cases tested flip right out with your fingernail. I felt no resistance using 444, blown out 303 , paper and plastic cases. The inserts are very well made. I didn’t have all this done in time for doves but for whatever reason we have been blessed with a great overabundance of cottontails this year so in the weeks remaining before a good frost I want to do some pattern work. While the inserts are turned from steel they did add a minor amount of weight but didn’t change the balance point. There were many ways I could have gone with this but to this point this seems for me at least to be the best way to go.
Facta non verba
Sounds like a great way to go, and it just makes me want a .410 double even more, be it lined or not, I just have a love for the little cartridge. I keep waiting for a nice late-Victorian to pop up so I can grab it at reasonable price, but they are few. I may settle for one of the folding poacher's guns or get me 2 Chaszel liners. Everything out there that is not 12 or 16 commands a big premium, even if it's not in as good a shape. I may just do what you did. Should be great on the cottontails!
Update
12 cottontails so far and the inserts are working fine. If you want to get that old double going again this seems to be a safe, fun way to do it!
Now for the rabbits! Three bunny’s boned gives you roughly four pounds of meat. Grind with about four pounds of pork butt and add sage and a couple other spices and you have an excellent breakfast sausage. It will be very lean but if you want you could add a little fat.
Facta non verba
great to read its worked out for you. the 410is a wonderful wee round.
I have a set of Briley Side Kicks -20,28, and 410
I regularly use them in my Damascus barreled shotguns for practice during the off season, and switch to black and brass cases for bird season.
The recoil difference in a 20 gauge 7/8 oz load going about 1,200FPS and a 1 1/8 oz load of lead using black powder going about,1,180 FPS uis very noticeable , although the 1 1/8 and black powder load is not uncomfortable.
I started using the Smokeless loads and Side Kicks for a few reasons, the actual cost of loading black powder versus Smokeless being one.
David
scopes and bags are cool, but palm rests 'n' irons RULE!
Good Morning, i would like to give my contribution to this discussion. Here in in Italy i have been working with a friend that has a fine English damascus double in excellent conditions. Same issue black powder vs smokeless. What we have done successfully is this: we studied a load (65 mm shell, 2 1/2 in. roll crimp) that had a max pressure of 500 bar (7250 psi) and a velocity of 380 ms (1240 ft sec). We were able to achieve this with a 28 grams (1 oz) pellet load. Nedless to say, they work fine on game. We are fortunate here, we had our loads tested in a pressure barrel gauge to be on the safe side. After trial and error... a few euros spent in testing different combinations, we found the appropriate load.
At one time my friend and I loaded Federal hulls using 700X ( 17.5 grains IIRC) from a Hodgdon manual that listed the load as under 7,---PSI.
It was a very good load for skeet .
I prefer my side kicks however.
David
scopes and bags are cool, but palm rests 'n' irons RULE!
I shoot my Parker PH with twist steel barrels using 7/8oz loads under 6,000 psi using published data. Have your barrels gaged and inspected by a side by side specialist before shooting. If your wall thickness isn’t adequate, I’d not shoot it at all. Also, if this gun has some family significance remember that parts can be very difficult to find/make if you break something. Best of luck.
One of the very few 12 Ga. shotguns I own (I generally prefer 16's) is an old 1903 Ithaca Lewis with beautiful Damascus barrels. I could shoot low- pressure smokeless loads through it but, it is just as easy for me to load and shoot Blackpowder. The only concession I have to make is to use Paper hulls, which isn't much of a problem since it has 2 1/2" chambers and I trim down the shells accordingly. Besides I LIKE the look of the crimps in a paper hull and the smell of BP!
Old enough to know better, young enough to do it anyway!
Men who don't understand women fall into two categories: bachelors and husbands!
Now that is something I had not even thought of until you mentioned it! I have an 1881 W&C Scott & Son 10 ga. damascus barreled gun that isn't in very good shape but I will get it back into shooting shape at some point. I was planning on buying 10 ga. hulls and relaoding using BP, BP sub or low pressure smokeless powder but I really have no desire to load for 10 ga. as I am set up for 12 ga. Looking on the internet the only brand of chamber insert reducer from 10 ga. to 12 ga. I see is Little Skeeter. This may be the way I want to go since I will probably sell the gun once it is fixed up and shootable.
Thanks for posting that info!
Longbow
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