Looks like another loser from Winchester

[6thtexas]

What E.L. said. I think a re-introduced .25 Stevens would sell.

This would be good, provided they would go off every time. Quality of Winchester RF ammunition is not good.

[deces]

I have come to believe that if success is the desired outcome, then make it AR compatible. Otherwise it's not worth trying.

[BNE]

I read the comments attached to the article. Why can you make a copper “heeled bullet”? I think that would be easier than a new cartridge that no one makes a gun for yet.

Just me. I think gun companies come up with “different” and “different” sells.

[country gent]

Just wondering what was said when the 30-03, 45/70, 308, 223, were first introduced

[HWooldridge]

The 45-70 was supposedly criticized for being a “small bore”…

[Valley-Shooter]

Some you guys are not looking at the long term picture.
Lead free requirements are on the rise. Lead free healed bullets have been a failure. This is the replacement. No change to the exterior if the case, so it will fit all the current actions and magazines. You just need a slightly smaller barrel. That's not a problem for manufactures, they just order a different size and keep making guns.

[dverna]

Some you guys are not looking at the long term picture.
Lead free requirements are on the rise. Lead free healed bullets have been a failure. This is the replacement. No change to the exterior if the case, so it will fit all the current actions and magazines. You just need a slightly smaller barrel. That's not a problem for manufactures, they just order a different size and keep making guns.

I have heard of good results with the CCI lead free .22LR.

But if the morons ever talk about banning lead .22’s I will buy 100k rounds and not worry about it.

In any case, there are too many .22’s for manufacturers to abandon the market. And not many .22’s are worth relining or rebarreling to a new round. The days of $.05/rd may end for those who do not plan ahead.

[uscra112]

Some you guys are not looking at the long term picture.
Lead free requirements are on the rise. Lead free healed bullets have been a failure. This is the replacement. No change to the exterior if the case, so it will fit all the current actions and magazines. You just need a slightly smaller barrel. That's not a problem for manufactures, they just order a different size and keep making guns.

Finally somebody got it right. It's a .22 LR case with a bullet that fits inside instead of being heeled. Trivial manufacturing changes in the ammo plant, no change to the rifles except bore size and chamber reamer.

[M-Tecs]

It's about time the design from 1857 gets an update. Time will tell how successful it will be. If the cost is on par with the standard 22LR it will do very well. The more the per round cost is the less successful it will be.

[Thundarstick]

I've wondered for a long time why we haven't already gone to this cartridge! I'm in to buy the first one CZ makes!

[dverna]

Dreamland my friends.

Did a search on Ammoseek.
Price of .22 LR is $.05 ea for Federal HP's
Price of .22 Mag is $.21 ea for Federal
Price of .17 HM2 is $.16 ea
Price of .17 HMR is $.25 ea

I predict this new round will come in at $.12-15 each. There is a need for affordable plinking ammunition and this new round will not be affordable. Production quantities will be low. There are over 2 billion .22 LR rounds produced a year. That is why .22's are cheap.

.21 Sharps launches a 25 gr bullet at 1725 fps. The 5mm Remington sent a 30 gr bullet at 2400 fps and it failed. Why will this succeed?

It is a catch-22 (pardon the pun). If there is not sufficient volume, manufacturing costs go up. If selling price is much higher than the .22 LR, most people will not buy it. There has been plenty of time for the .17 RF's to "take off" and net lower pricing but it has not happened...why?

I do not own a .17 RF and got rid of the .22 Mag due to ammunition costs and better options. A brick of .22's for plinking is $25 at current market prices. That is hard to beat. And the .223 beats the RF's for killing varmints.

People who want more than a .22LR and do not reload, have already moved to the current RF offerings. I don't see where this cartridge fits in. I reload .223's for not much more than .17 HMR's. It would be silly to buy a new .17 or .21 and scope for $800-1000 to save $.15/shot and get reduced performance. I do not kill 100's of critters a year like some people must. I doubt many do.

Lastly, people complained when .22's were $40-50/brick. Many moved to air guns. With .22's now at $25/500, I don't see many folks shooting a brick of .21's at $75 over the weekend.

One good thing is that if you have a 10/22 it should be an easy barrel swap. $200 plus the cost of ammunition to try it out. That seems like a better option than buying a new .21 rifle that may wind up like the 5mm Remington.

[gypsyman]

Guess they have to keep coming out with something new to keep the troops happy. I'm happy with what I've got, keeps me busy casting and reloading, don't need another iron in the fire.

[Digital Dan]

Dreamland my friends.


Price of .17 HM2 is $.16 ea




People who want more than a .22LR and do not reload, have already moved to the current RF offerings. I don't see where this cartridge fits in. I reload .223's for not much more than .17 HMR's. It would be silly to buy a new .17 or .21 and scope for $800-1000 to save $.15/shot and get reduced performance. I do not kill 100's of critters a year like some people must. I doubt many do.

Maybe those that don't reload need to examine that pastime.

Perfectly amazing what range of performance can be milked out of a reloading bench and a .22 Hornet. Take it a step further and cast some bullets for the lower velocity realm...

[uscra112]

We don't understand people who don't reload, because we do. I just spent a weekend with a guy who doesn't even reload for his 6.5 Creedmore. He doesn't shoot it much. It's sighted in and his next shot will take a deer. Busy guy, no time in his life to take up reloading, although I've prodded him. It's a different mindset entirely.

According to Stevens catalogs from the 1890s, the .25 Stevens rimfire was developed because of demand from people who didn't want to reload their .25-20.

I'm sure the .21 Sharps will be priced high now because early adopters will pay any price, as Apple has shown with their whole product line. It can come down eventually because the mfg. process is so similar to .22 LR.

[HWooldridge]

We don't understand people who don't reload, because we do. I just spent a weekend with a guy who doesn't even reload for his 6.5 Creedmore. He doesn't shoot it much. It's sighted in and his next shot will take a deer. Busy guy, no time in his life to take up reloading, although I've prodded him. It's a different mindset entirely.

According to Stevens catalogs from the 1890s, the .25 Stevens rimfire was developed because of demand from people who didn't want to reload their .25-20.

I'm sure the .21 Sharps will be priced high now because early adopters will pay any price, as Apple has shown with their whole product line. It can come down eventually because the mfg. process is so similar to .22 LR.

Most people who hunt do not reload. It wasn’t enormously popular 50 years ago and has gotten less so over time. Of all the folks I know who are active shooters, which is probably close to 100 - only two reload. Serious target shooters will probably always do it, so long as components are available.

[mdatlanta]

By chance, did anyone read the comments at the bottom of the article?
At first glance, I agree that this round is an answer to a question no one asked, but the information
gleaned from the comments does present a viable reason for this cartridge's development.

+1 Suggest reading the comments at the end of the article for some thoughtful reasons this cartridge may actually be of some practical use.

[popper]

Possibly for non-lead bullets? Main reason 22lr is so accurate is the heeled bullet. Fills the throat so the bullet isn't damaged when fired.
Harder to do (cost) for a copper bullet.

[M-Tecs]

Per the article it uses a standard 22LR case with a non-heeled bullet the size of the 22LR case ID. That should hold costs down considerably. The 17's and 5mm Rem are bottle necked cases and the 22 Mag is a unique case size. That increase costs.

This one will come down to cost and marketing. The 6.5 Creedmoor was a major yawn until the marketing geniuses started pushing the PRS games on TV. If this cartridge (due to better bullets) become the rimfire PRS darling it will take off the same and the 6.5 and the 6 Creedmoor.

Will the 21 Sharp ever be as cheap a low end 22LR? Probably not. For equal accuracy levels between the high end 22LR and 21 Sharps my guess is the 21 Sharps will be cheaper for the same or better performance.

Eley Tenex EPS Ammunition 22 Long Rifle 40 Grain Lead Flat Nose is currently $25.99 per 50 at Midway https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1392140858/

RWS R100 22LR Box 50 $23.95 sale $19.95 https://freelandssports.com/product/...0-22lr-box-50/

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...g-rifle/326553

https://www.ssusa.org/content/match-...ndup-for-2023/

[Digital Dan]

Another option is explained in the following link. Cost for a loaded round (primer/powder/lead) is about 4 cents/round based on the costs of my components when purchased. Fact that they can be reloaded suggests that the options menu is limited only by one's imagination.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...ics/14251051/1

[Daekar]

Another option is explained in the following link. Cost for a loaded round (primer/powder/lead) is about 4 cents/round based on the costs of my components when purchased. Fact that they can be reloaded suggests that the options menu is limited only by one's imagination.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...ics/14251051/1

I don't understand how the total cost can come in that low if you're using a centerfire primer instead of a rimfire case. I haven't seen primers for less than $.08 in ages, and most of them are $.10 or more. That means I can buy more than one entire 22LR cartridge for the cost of a single primer, and it doesn't require me to spend time casting, coating, sizing, and loading. Have I missed something?

I confess that I didn't read the entire 32 page thread, so apologies if that was explained in there somewhere.