can brass cartridge swage a soft lead boolit?

[sv44]

Having some trouble with keyholing all of a sudden and am wondering: is it possible that the cartridge is swaging the base enough to destabilize my cast and swaged boolit?

38 special full wadcutter - either dewc cast or full swaged 'trash can' with a target nose - seated a hair above the case
minimal crimp (nothing really)
3.5gr bullseye or 3.2 gr WST
freedom arms 97 and 83
BHN 8
powder coated
sized to 0.358
trying to just shoot paper and these are going haywire at 40'

i load on a dillon sdb and I know the powder funnel doesn't get more than half the distance inside the case- looking for alternatives to the standard dillon funnel

things I've noticed- I can hear the rounds that will keyhole when i shoot them - sound different somehow. I have checked and checked the amount of powder thrown and it is always spot on but.. I haven't measured each and every cartridge yet- will do that next.

i cast some new DEWC this morning BHN 11-12
when these are loaded I can see where the bullet lands in the case (as opposed to the softer lead) so that prompted this line of question.

did not see much barrel leading when i looked the other day (but there was some)


before this started i was using both cast and swaged with no keyholing
but this started with a new batch or both cast and swaged that I made earlier this month.

so.. all thoughts and critiques are welcome.Thank you in advance

[rusty marlin]

Yes, if there is enough neck tension and the boolit is of pure lead or soft enough alloy it can crush the boolit.
I have a couple of special "M" die inserts I've made for the 38-55 and 45-70 that create the "perfect" inside diameter that allows the boolit to be seated with thumb pressure. The 45-70's have to be crimped or the the boolit will jump.
If you are getting leading, your bullets aren't big enough, or the cylinder throats are smaller than the groove dia. and sizing them down.

[GhostHawk]

Yes indeed. Pull a couple of bullets and measure. Remember you want 1 to 3 thousandths OVER groove diameter.

I would start by trying a few with easing off the crimp. And if you are not flaring or expanding your brass before inserting cast you should be.

[M-Tecs]

Yes and Lyman M dies are your friend.

[stubshaft]

Yes and Lyman M dies are your friend.

I prefer the NOE expanders because they are available in different diameters.

[M-Tecs]

I prefer the NOE expanders because they are available in different diameters.

Good point. I have my own lathe and mill so generally make/modify what I need to the size I need.

[TD1886]

First off I'm like M-Tec in that I make my own expanders. With that said I hate Lyman's . For factory I think RCBS far exceed them, too bad they don't make a wide range of expands. As it's been explained here yes case necks so size down your cast bullets especially the softer ones. Well I'm going to tell you that wonderful ledge you like that the Lyman M die leaves ALSO will size your softer bullets down. I think the M die also works the case mouth more then any other type.

[wilecoyote]

...so.. all thoughts and critiques are welcome.Thank you in advance

an alternative way to eliminate excessive neck tension can be to use a Lee Factory Crimp die without crimp bushing instead of the traditional sizer. it works in my S&Ws but i don't know if so for you, given the tight tolerances of your revolver chambers_

[uscra112]

"I can hear the rounds that will keyhole when i shoot them - sound different somehow. "

At a guess this may be because you are not crimping enough to prevent recoil from shifting the bullets outward in the case. Change in effective seating depth is changing the powder burn pressure.

Old time .38 bullseye shooters didn't size their cases down much if at all. The bullet was no more than a light drag fit when inserting; the roll crimp was what held it in place. I got so obsessive that I had different expander plugs for different brass temper, so that the seating force was always to my liking. I was shooting a superb 9" Colt Officers' Model which was so inherently accurate that things like that could be detected.

Something else worth knowing is that wadcutter brass does not taper inside, so as to avoid swaging down the bullet. This is the stuff with the cannelure. If you're seating a DEWC deep in ordinary brass, you're swaging the back end down, which will do you no good at all.

[sv44]

thank you for the replies. If i can ask a few clarifying questions.
I am using a dillon SDB progressive press- Is there a way to use any of the expander dies with this press or does this require a using a different system or set up to allow this to occur? The dillon system uses a powder through die to size and deliver the powder so.. should i try to find a way to alter their powder funnel to allow the wadcutter to seat deeper and not be sized down - at this point I see making the funnel a bit longer and sizing it down to the correct dimensions (not sure how to do that just yet but I am not afraid to try)
again, thanks to all

[uscra112]

I would tell you to stop using that progressive press until you have the parameters well sorted out. First and foremost, are you using brass made for wadcutters? If not, no amount of fiddling with that Dillon expander/powder-funnel will do you any good. Second, how are you crimping? The crimp must be a roll crimp, not a taper crimp as used for semi-autos that headspace on the case mouth, and it must be fairly firm. The uniformity of the crimp is crucial, so making sure that all your brass is the same length is required. Variation in length means variation of crimp. You are loading plain lead bullets, not jacketed, and the rules of the road are very different.

[Jal5]

I’d start by pulling a few of your reloaded rounds and measure the boolit in comparison to a your boolit size prior to reloading it. My guess is you are swaging the boolit down in the reloading process = leading and keyholes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sv44]

ok, i will do that. now-- i am not well versed on pulling the bullet to examine- these are seated deep (a hair above the cartridge mouth). will an inertia puller work for this or should i try to seat them out a bit and then pull them?
i am using starline brass, i have no wadcutter cartridges- is there any hope for those cartridges or do i need to search for the wadcutter brass (i have seen the posts regarding this and it seemed the conclusion was starline would work)

[StrawHat]

…

Having some trouble with keyholing all of a sudden…

…38 special full wadcutter …

Good choice of cartridge.

…3.5gr bullseye…

That is a full power charge, perhaps less powder would help.

…sized to 0.358…

What is the largest throat diameter?

…trying to just shoot paper …

When I competed in PPC, the competitive shooters using Bullseye, were loading 2.6-2.8 grains.

…did not see much barrel leading when i looked the other day (but there was some)…

A little leading is no big deal, a good wire brush will remove it.

What revolver are you using?

As uscra112 pointed out, wadcutter brass is preferred. Not sure how readily available it is anymore.

Also, uscra112 mentioned varying the crimp, when I shot, I did not crimp at all. 2.8 grains of Bullseye shot better in my revolvers with no crimp. I was concerned about bullet creep so I loaded six, shot five, reloaded with five fresh and shot, reloaded, etc. I did not see measureable creep with the one unfired cartridge after 25 rounds fired. The next six (including the skipped round) all went into the same cluster at 25 yards. So, try with no crimp?

The Dillon SDB press uses dedicated dies. I am not sure how they can be modified or even IF they can be modified. If you have access to a single stage press, work out your load and then try it on the SDB. All of us who shot competitively used a progressive press of some sort, unless the department was supplying ammunition, mine did not.

I used and still use a Dillon 450. It produced good solid ammunition when I did my part.

Keep us posted on your progress please.

Kevin

[uscra112]

One of several threads on the Bullseye Forum about selecting brass for wadcutters:

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t13335...for-wadcutters

More:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...adcutter-brass

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...adcutter-Brass

[gwpercle]

You just about have to have a Lyman M-Die to load WC's (and also any lead boolit in 9mm luger... it's a stinker ) but a better set up is sold by NOE ... after getting one I have never bought another Lyman M-Die ... NOE every time and with every new mould ... check them out at www.noebulletmolds.com
Gary

[sv44]

so.. i thought the load was on the high end as well, that's what started this process. I dropped to 2.8gr or so and the key holing began so it's been a long slow walk up to try to get to the bottom of it all.
the firearm is FA 83- throat is .357. I size to .358 after powder coating
i pulled a wadcutter today and it has been sized down to .356 by the cartridge.
like i said in the OP, i cast some new boolits with a harder mix (ben 11-12) and shot them this morning- no key holing but i am still convinced that i can shoot better if i get this cartridge sized better (it measures .355 with a pin gauge).

can i ask.. if i am to proceed with a single stage and an NOE die- is it reasonable to size then move the cartridge back to the dillon to drop powder, insert the boolit, and crimp?
speaking of crimp- i have next to no crimp and seem to doing fine (this is after crimping far more to see what that did to my results -as expected, made things worse or certainly no better).

[StrawHat]

Another thought, since you are using a revolver, you can seat the boolit out long in the case to avoid pinching it. Yes, you will need a bit more powder to make up for the added case volume but that is certainly doable.

Kevin

[TD1886]

ok, i will do that. now-- i am not well versed on pulling the bullet to examine- these are seated deep (a hair above the cartridge mouth). will an inertia puller work for this or should i try to seat them out a bit and then pull them?
i am using starline brass, i have no wadcutter cartridges- is there any hope for those cartridges or do i need to search for the wadcutter brass (i have seen the posts regarding this and it seemed the conclusion was starline would work)

Yes an inertai puller will work.

[TD1886]

You just about have to have a Lyman M-Die to load WC's (and also any lead boolit in 9mm luger... it's a stinker ) but a better set up is sold by NOE ... after getting one I have never bought another Lyman M-Die ... NOE every time and with every new mould ... check them out at www.noebulletmolds.com
Gary

You absolutely possitively do not have to have Lyman M die to load good 9mm ammo or any other ammo for that matter.