5744, Revisited

[huntinlever]

Well, I am glad to say I think I've found 5744 works out well after all in my 45-70. After so many have spoken of its excellent fit with the cartridge, finding it disappointing in my own guide gun, I'd pretty much concluded my gun prefers I 4198 and moved forward with a hot load there.

Whatever happened previously, whether it was poor sorting on my cast 405's, lube issue, whatever it was, pleased to report. These are only 4 shot strings so nothing to conclude until I do larger strings but still, I'd be pleased with any of these loads and invite your thoughts:

[BLAHUT]

You do not say at what yardage ? What primer ?? Vertical stringing; would say to me; inconsistent powder charge ? You are changing load by .5 / 1 gr, I am anal, I change my load by .01 grs per 10 shots, to narrow down most accurate load, Your Sight picture ? Trigger control ? Bench Tekneek ? Cheak pressure ? Bullet weight consistency ? So I under stand, what do you want, one hole, 5 - 10 shot groups ? Just hit a 5" pie plate with each shot at 100yds ??? My guide gun, I use a 515 gr pure lead, flat point, 27 grs of 5744, a mag primer, my lube, At about 1200FPS. If I do my part they will all be touching at 100 yds. Keep in mind your gun may not be able to do any better than what you now have ?? If it were easy; everyone would be doing it ???

[725]

huntinlever ~ Go forth and fill your freezer.

[huntinlever]

You do not say at what yardage ? What primer ?? Vertical stringing; would say to me; inconsistent powder charge ? You are changing load by .5 / 1 gr, I am anal, I change my load by .01 grs per 10 shots, to narrow down most accurate load, Your Sight picture ? Trigger control ? Bench Tekneek ? Cheak pressure ? Bullet weight consistency ? So I under stand, what do you want, one hole, 5 - 10 shot groups ? Just hit a 5" pie plate with each shot at 100yds ??? My guide gun, I use a 515 gr pure lead, flat point, 27 grs of 5744, a mag primer, my lube, At about 1200FPS. If I do my part they will all be touching at 100 yds. Keep in mind your gun may not be able to do any better than what you now have ?? If it were easy; everyone would be doing it ???

! Man, in a million years I would never approach what you do, Blahut, and to be honest I'm totally OK with that. I want to kill deer to elk well and cleanly at the reasonable limits of my ability, likely 150 yards. All range reports I post are 100 yards. Outside my .338 WM, all cases are Starline brass and CCI LR (not magnums). As addictive as a beautiful cloverleaf of touching shots has been for me, I know chasing it will only mean I burn through truckloads of components. 2 MOA is great with me, so all these above are good. Mostly just curious what guys would think looking on these, on the face of it, as is - which load would you take. I acknowledge 4 is nothing to go on, so more just an instant "gut" appraisal among members among these photos. For what it's worth, 33.5-33.6 has performed similarly to the above more often than not. I do have these single flyers with just about any load, so not sure what that is unless it's a flinch or technical issue with my shooting.

Speaking of shooting - I try to relax, breathe, slight pause, straight-back trigger, very light cheek contact and well-tucked into shoulder pocket. Basic shooting, really. Mostly I try to get a load locked in, stop monkeying around, load a ton accordingly with that load, and get off the bench to offhand and field-positional shooting, including snap shooting.

Edit, oh, sorting, sorry: pass one is visual inspection, then weight within 390.0-391.9.

[huntinlever]

huntinlever ~ Go forth and fill your freezer.

Man after my own heart. In the immortal words of every kid everywhere throughout all time, when on long family car trips: "Are we there yet?"

Autumn can't come soon enough. Bring on the cold, man.

[StrawHat]

I use this powder in a variety of big bore cartridges, 405 WCF to 50-70. Years ago I read about a conversion formula for 5744 to black powder, 40% of the black powder weight in grains = the weight of 5744. So, for the 50-70 and its little brother, 28 grains. That worked out well. The 405 was always a smokeless load but very similar in size to the 40-72 WCF, (also a chambering in the Winchester 1895). 40% worked out to 28 grains there also so one measure for the three cartridges. Not a bad set up.

Kevin

[huntinlever]

I use this powder in a variety of big bore cartridges, 405 WCF to 50-70. Years ago I read about a conversion formula for 5744 to black powder, 40% of the black powder weight in grains = the weight of 5744. So, for the 50-70 and its little brother, 28 grains. That worked out well. The 405 was always a smokeless load but very similar in size to the 40-72 WCF, (also a chambering in the Winchester 1895). 40% worked out to 28 grains there also so one measure for the three cartridges. Not a bad set up.

Kevin

Interesting info, thanks Kevin. How fast is your 405 traveling? How does it group? Do you hunt with it?

[Sgt H]

StrawHat is correct on the 40% with 5744. Loading 40% of the original BP charge will yield the approximate velocity of the original loads for a given boolit weight in rounds that were originally BP. You can adjust this charge up or down a couple of grains to find the node for your rifle. I find it interesting in loading for my 45-70's that the best accuracy is right close to the 40% with boolit weights from 340-525 grains.

[StrawHat]

Interesting info, thanks Kevin. How fast is your 405 traveling? How does it group? Do you hunt with it?

Fast enough to get to the target before it moves. Not being flip, I have no need for a chronograph. It holds about 3-4” groups at 100 yards. Once I sight a firearm in on paper, it is then carried and used on my property until I am comfortable with it. There are various rocks, stumps, 5 gallon pails, paint cans etc. scattered about and when I see one, I estimate range, assume a field position and fire. It makes it much easier for when I am hunting. Paper shooting does nothing for me anymore as I do not want to return to competition.

The recoil with 5744 is much easier on my artificial shoulder than the factory load.

[BRatigan]

Your 32.5 grain load is the load I would use. Three touching and a single close flyer. If this is a 50-yard group, I'd say you are good to go. Thats just my opinion.

[chill45100]

How does the recoil with 5744 compare to black powder? Asking because I have had my shooting shoulder joint replaced.

[huntinlever]

Your 32.5 grain load is the load I would use. Three touching and a single close flyer. If this is a 50-yard group, I'd say you are good to go. Thats just my opinion.

Thanks, I recently did a JB/Kroil cleaning for the first time after well over 1000 shots, and it made a significant difference. I got a pulled 2 MOA, but otherwise a 10 shot group was 1 moa with many of those touching, so knocking on wood, well....time to take to the woods and bring back meat!

[huntinlever]

How does the recoil with 5744 compare to black powder? Asking because I have had my shooting shoulder joint replaced.

Yikes. I can't give you a comparison to black powder but I can tell you when I was doing load development sub-30 grains 5744 was really pleasant to shoot. Mind you I'm used to shooting way-over-the-top loads, 405 gr & 425 gr WFNGC, both over 39.7 IMR 4198, so I'm used to stiff shots. Pretty leery for you to be shooting anything at all hot with this cartridge, but whatever you do good luck.

[Kraschenbirn]

I use this powder in a variety of big bore cartridges, 405 WCF to 50-70. Years ago I read about a conversion formula for 5744 to black powder, 40% of the black powder weight in grains = the weight of 5744. So, for the 50-70 and its little brother, 28 grains. That worked out well. The 405 was always a smokeless load but very similar in size to the 40-72 WCF, (also a chambering in the Winchester 1895). 40% worked out to 28 grains there also so one measure for the three cartridges. Not a bad set up.

Kevin

My experience would seem to agree with the 40% number. I shoot an Accurate clone of the 1879 Gov't boolit in two .45-70s and my 'sweet spots' for SW Buffalo Rifle is 27.5 gr. for the Highwall and 28.5 for the Pedersoli RB.

Bill

[15meter]

I think the actual 5744 formula is fill a case with 5744 to the level of where your seated bullet would be and use 40% as a starting load, 48% as a maximum load. It's worked for me in a dozen plus cartridges, mostly African big game calibers. 416 Rigby, 470 N. E., 450 N. E. kind of big boomer stuff.

Accurate used to publish it in their manuals.

It's worked for me for years.

By using the seated depth, you can calculate specific loads for your bullet weight.

And one of the oddities of double rifles you can usually get pistol weight boolits to regulate, making them less expensive to shoot, just as accurate as the boomer loads they were designed to shoot AND way more fun to shoot. Like 40 rounds out of a 470 N. E., and wondering why that was all you bought, as opposed to 4 rounds of hunting loads and figuring that was as much fun as you could handle for the day.

[JSnover]

How does the recoil with 5744 compare to black powder? Asking because I have had my shooting shoulder joint replaced.

That will depend on the weight of the rifle and the boolit. What's your rifle and your favorite boolit weight? There's a world difference between a 12-13 pound single shot and 6-8 pound bolt action. Things get worse when the boolits weigh 500 or more.

[Sgt H]

Loaded to the same velocity the smokeless load is going to recoil less than BP as the powder charge weight is part of the calculation for recoil. This is assuming your using smokeless with a similar pressure curve to BP. FWIW Alliant 2400 closely duplicates this and has a burn rate/pressure curve very similar to one of the long defunct bulk smokeless powders developed to replace BP in the transition era. The name of that old powder escapes me at the moment. Also with light rifles in hard recoiling calibers like a Marlin Guide gun I find better groups when the fore end is firmly held rather than rested on the bench bags.

[huntinlever]

Also with light rifles in hard recoiling calibers like a Marlin Guide gun I find better groups when the fore end is firmly held rather than rested on the bench bags.

+1.

[StrawHat]

If you are shooting while standing on you hind legs, your body will help absorb the recoil.

Once you zero in a load, why continue to shoot from a rest?

Kevin

[missionary5155]

Or seated on the large matter behind cross sticks. Been doing it that way for many years and still have good functioning shoulders.