Shooting Grandpas Pocket Pistols

[Texas by God]

I replaced the firing pin on an H&R .32 auto for a friend.
Test firing it was like you described pretty much.
I didn’t want one after that.


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[Captain O]

While my babies are either dead, or estranged, I fall into that category. The little pistols are quite favorable. I don't mind stuffing my CZ-70 into my shoulder holster when i run down to the market for some milk. (The Titan or Bauer .25 are convenient for this as well).

I would probably make a nasty encounter quite painful, if not terminal, with 6 rounds from either of the mini-pistols.

[rintinglen]

There is one other pre-war U.S. pistol that I can warn against.

That is the Davis-Warner "Infallible". I have only handled one, but the owner flat out told me he was selling it strictly as a curio, "Not a functional firearm." They are perhaps the oddest handling pistol I have ever held. The weight is almost all in the rear of the gun. According to the guy offering it up for sale, there were only a few thousand made, and it shared with the Ross Rifle the disconcerting fact that improper reassembly could result in the bolt violently ejecting from the gun. (and potentially smacking you in the kisser.) I managed not to buy it. But I have managed to repair my Mauser 1914, so I have that and my Browning 1922 ready to rumble. Plus a 1907 Savage that I've had for a few years.

What I am looking for is another CZ-27. I had one back in the 80's, but I sold it to help pay doctor bills when our second child was born, and I have never got around to finding another when I had some cash in my jeans. They used to be pretty cheap, but lately they have escalated remarkedly. Still, I have hopes. I ain't dead yet.

And I may have to drag some stuff out west (West Virginia, anyways) and take up Outpost on his offer. Those older Berettas are pretty neat, though I can't say I have ever seen one in 7.65, only 9mm Kurz (380 to all you Imperial users.)

[45workhorse]

Nice write up

[rintinglen]

In 1923, one of the new nations created at Versailles, “The Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes,” needed to rationalize their army’s sidearms. They were using a hodgepodge of Austro-Hungarian castoffs and remnants, bolstered by whatever else happened to be lying around. They went to Fabrique National and wanted to order an 8 shot 7.65 caliber pistol with a 114 MM barrel (4 and ½ inches, give or take.) In the depressed market for military weapons after WWI, FN wanted the money, but did not want to spend more than they had to, tooling up for a new gun. Their engineers looked at the Model 1910, already in production, and decided that it could easily be adapted to meet the specifications of the Kingdom, (later Yugoslavia). The barrel was lengthened from 87 mm to 114 mm, the slide slightly modified to accommodate a longer barrel bushing, the frame was increased to accommodate 2 more rounds and the magazine lengthened accordingly. The sights were improved—they could hardly be any worse—and the weight increased by about 4 ounces. The pistol was an instant success.

Yugoslavia got 60,000 on their initial order, Belgium piggybacked off that, while Denmark, and Holland ordered some. They were also to be seen in Police holsters in France, Romania, Turkey, as well as Sweden, Norway and Bulgaria. Nazi Germany continued manufacture of the 1910/22 in both calibers during World War II after the fall of Belgium in 1940, where the 7.65 was known as the Pistole 626b, while the 380 version was called the Pistole 641b. After the war, production was resumed and the 1910/22 was widely used as a police weapon throughout western Europe. The final production occurred in the early 1970’s, though a few were reportedly still for sale as late as 1978. No one can say exactly how many were made, but well over 750,000 seems to be a safe bet.

My example is a Belgian civilian model with a 5 digit serial number, Cal. 7.65, 9 shots, and presumably pre-dates WW II by about a dozen years. I have had it just about 12 years and it has digested several hundred 32 ACP cartridges—mostly Winchester White Box, but about 150 of my reloads as well. Truth to tell, it is a little over-sized for a pocket pistol, unless you are Clint Smith, who reported carrying an N-frame S&W in his pockets. It is just shy of 7 inches long, about 4 ¾” high, and about 1 3/16’s inches thick. It weighs just under 24 ounces empty and has a fairly typical trigger for a prewar pocket pistol, being about 6 lbs.

Something I should point out is that virtually all of the older pocket pistols were single action. There were a few DA and DAO only pistols, the La Francaise, J. P. Sauer and the Walther PP series come to mind, but the vast majority were strait single action pistols. I once read a book that had scores of FN Browning copies pictured in it. German, French, Czech, Spanish, Yugoslavian, you name the country, there was probably someone pirating John Browning designs there. And they were all Browning derivative single actions. In fact, in the first half of the 20th century, in Europe, Browning was to pistols what Kleenex is to facial tissue.

Tomorrow, I will run it through the drill and see how it performs.

[rintinglen]

Well, what a welcome change! Last week's entrant was a no show, but this week, wow.



As you can see, there were no misses this week. Amazing what a difference even a decent sight can make. The slightly longer barrel and grip also made a difference.

Starting at the 3 yard line, I drew and fired two shots, twice. Both runs were under 3 seconds, the first well under--2.56 seconds. All 4 shots were in the 8 ring. Going back to the 5 yard line, I drew, fired 3 shots strong hand and then 3 weak hand in 5.94 seconds, well under the 7 second time limit for this stage. The 7 and 10 yard lines were easy, both were finished with time to spare and good hits. The only snag was executing the reload at the 15 yard line. I had to struggle to get the empty mag out and the 1910/22 does not lock open on empty, so I had to work the slide to ready the second 6 shots. I cut my knee on a 9 mm case when I dropped to the ground for the four shots kneeling, right and left barricade, but I managed to finish up with my last two shots just under the 25 second time limit. I was very pleased to see that all 30 shots were in the scoring rings.

There was a reason FN was able to sell so many of these: THEY WORK. A machine gunner, mortar man or Officer armed with one of these was well armed. Yeah, it was no 45, nor even a 9mm, but mine goes bang every time. Something that all of the 9mm's can't say. You can hit what you aim at with it, and it is lighter than most WW II service pistols. I wore mine home, just because, and was quite confident in my ability to deal with whatever popped up. Should you decide to get one, look for something other than a nazi-marked gun. Slave labor makes for poor products and that is reportedly the case here, though the Nazi 380 I shot years back worked just fine. Other people have reported problems with their WW II guns. YMMV, I guess, but this is one of the better guns of that era.

[rintinglen]

The Mauser 1914.
Not content with becoming the greatest producer of military rifles in the World, Paul Mauser set his trusted employees, the Federle brothers, to perfect a design they had been working on for a new service sidearm. They brought forth the first practical semi-automatic military sidearm. Over a period of three years, from 1893 to 1996, they completed their design for the C96, which would be a very popular pistol over the next 43 years, with nearly a million made in various configurations and styles. But in 1905, they had only managed to sell a comparative handful, and the Mauser firm was interested in developing a more compact model to compete in the bourgeoning civilian pocket pistol market. Josef Nickl, a famous gun designer that few have ever heard of, went to work, creating a number of designs that never went beyond the prototype stage. But starting in 1907 he began to patent several designs that would become the 1910 6.35 (25 ACP) Selbstladepistole. That was a large pistol for such a small cartridge, but they had a reputation for working well and being quite accurate. They sold quite well.

Bear in mind that the 6.35 caliber cartridge had taken Europe by storm, in just a few years hundreds of thousands were sold. FN would sell nearly 4,000,000 of their 1906 pattern pistols before production halted in the early 30’s for the newer, even smaller, Baby Browning. Walther in Germany and every Basque in Spain who could spell the word "lathe“ were making either out-right copies of the FN or similar pistols chambering this cartridge. It was even more popular than its older brother, the 7.65 cartridge. However, it was never really considered a service cartridge.

Enter the 1914.
From the first, it was clear the basic design was easily enlarged a bit to accommodate the larger 7.65 cal, which was a service cartridge. You and I may disagree, but Belgium was using it. Guns had been sold to Russia, Turkey and Balkan nations. The Austro-Hungarian Empire was using several 7.65 and 8 mm cartridges. Police agencies were beginning to adopt it. A reliable mid-size pistol would be very popular as a police cartridge. Nickl and his subordinates promptly put the 1910 on a diet of steroids and came up with the improved “New Model” 8 shot, 7.65 Pistol, just in time for the unpleasantness of the first World War. ~276,000 would be purchased for rear echelon personnel. Mine dates from ~1932 and is almost exactly 6 inches long, with a 3 and 3/8” barrel, and is 1.10” thick at its widest point. It weighs a smidge over 20 ounces and is about 4 & 3/8th inches tall. The New Model has an improved disconnector and side plate system and a couple of other minor changes over the original 1910 pistol. Over 550,000 would reportedly be made before Mauser replaced it with the Walther PPK wannabee HSc in 1941.

It is an interesting design. Similar to the later HSc pistol, the slide locks open on an empty magazine and will not close until a full or empty magazine is inserted. Unlike the typical Browning design with a sliding trigger bar connecting the trigger to the sear, in the Mauser, the trigger bar and sear are one piece, the sear unit pivots as a bell crank to release the striker. The safety is an ell shaped lever which pivots up to block the movement of the sear/trigger bar unit and is held down by the Safety catch. That is where the rub can come in. The safety catch can and does wear. When that happens, the safety is not held in contact with the Sear/trigger bar unit and the gun may fire if the trigger is pulled. This is a fairly common problem, so much so that the Jack First Co. has had after-market replacements made. THESE ARE NOT DROP IN. They will require fitting and adjustment to work. The catch is about 60 dollars or so shipped, and if I were the gunsmith, I would charge at least 1 ½ hours shop time to fit it. So should you encounter one of these, try the safety before you buy or else adjust the price to reflect the cost of repairs. I only have one magazine for mine, though Triple K makes aftermarket magazines, so I will have to simulate reloading.

[Captain O]

I nearly bought one of those Mauser pistols in .32 ACP. (My father would have had to sign for it as I was only 16 years old). I always thought that the little pistol would accomplish the task had it been called upon to do so.

[rintinglen]

At last weekend's gunshow, I lucked into a Triple K mag so now I have two!

[rintinglen]

Well, I should know better. I grabbed what I thought was a box of PMC 32 ACP, and it was actually 380. Believe it or don't, but it would not feed in the Mauser.

[WRideout]

Your writing is excellent RTG. I thoroughly enjoy this series. I sit here dreamily contemplating ownership of a 32 auto with some historical significance. Maybe I should do what worked before; buy a mold for 32 auto pistol, then the pistol will arrive shortly afterward. Or perhaps I should get the reloading dies first. Decisions, decisions!

Wayne

[Outpost75]

I would recommend to all that anyone wanting a sturdy, reliable and affordable .32 ACP look really hard at the Beretta M1935, either in wartime steel frame or postwar commercial light alloy frame. I have both and have kept them while selling off my Walthers, Mausers and CZs. Only other .32s I value equally are the Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless and SIG P230, which is rare in the 7.65mm caliber.

[Walks]

This has been a interesting read. I have a few pocket pistols in .32, namely My Grandmother's S&W LemonSqueezer and a pair of .32ACP's; Savage 1907 & Walther PP.
The LemonSqueezer gets a few rounds every few years. The .32ACP pistols get wrung out at least once a year, couple of boxes each. Had My Grandfather's 1903, but a friend was making a pair of grips for when He suddenly passed. His wife said I could have it back if I showed her the receipt.
Who the heck has a receipt for a gun their Grandfather bought over a hundred years ago ? If He ever had one ?

I should would like to try running a combat course with either of My .32 auto's. Sounds like great fun.

[rintinglen]

Not pre-war, but really cool none the less, a Beretta 70S has a better safety while still retaining many of the earlier 1935 model's excellent features. The safety on the older guns (1934/1935 Berettas) was pretty funky, a 180 degree throw a long reach out for the thumb. The 70s has the safety under the thumb and works really well. But the Model 70 has crappy safety and mag release buttons like the 1951 9mm. I have been looking for one, but as usual, if I want one, they ain't none. But if I don't want one, I trip over the darned things.

@Walks
You may be surprised at how well they do, at least at the shorter ranges.

[rintinglen]

Well, it took three weeks, but I finally managed to get the shooting part of the Mauser 1914 done, though I really want to give it a “do-over,” I had a really hard time with the afternoon sun glaring on the sights and at 15 yards I’d have done almost as well to hip shoot. I had to break in a new shot timer, a Special Pie M1A2, which comes with arguably the worst example of “Engrish” written instructions that I have ever seen. Should you buy one, be sure to review the video on You Tube, if you want to be able to use it.
Anyway, I didn’t have a holster to fit it, but a pseudo Askins Avenger I made a few years ago for my Remington R51 9mm worked well enough. I wouldn’t want to run through the forest relying on it to keep me and gun together, but it held the gun well enough to allow me to draw and fire for the course.

I started at the 3 yard line and had a little trouble with the safety catch. It is a small button that is well shielded from accidental mis-operation. A little too well shielded to afford easy one-handed operation. My first run was 2.76 seconds with decent, though not great hits, but the second run, though actually faster resulted in a miss when I hurried my shot after fumbling the safety. That would prove to be a pattern and is a fault of the gun; the safety is not well placed for ergonomic functioning. Moving back to five yards, I drew fired 3 shots strong hand, then transferred the gun to my left hand for three more. Time allowed is 7 seconds and I needed most of them, 6.48 seconds, thanks to once again having to fumble with the safety, but all 6 shots were good hits, the 3 strong hand shots were especially good, all in the 9 and 10 rings.

Moving back to 7 yards, I had no trouble at all making the time, but I was having trouble with the black on black sights. There is no shade on the Action Pistol Range at our club and the 1:00 PM sun was pretty fierce. All six shots were in the scoring rings, but my own mother wouldn’t say it was a good group. Things got worse at the 10 yard line; I could hardly make out the sights at all between the glare and lack of contrast. I put another one out, way over on the left, barely touching the sleeve. Back at the 15 yard line, the reload went smoothly, but I made two more misses, one down low and one high, over the left shoulder. Counting them up, I found I had shot a 26/30 or 86.67%--passing, but not prize winning.

If I were to carry this weapon for defense, I'd definitely have to put some nail polish on the front sight. The safety issue would be a deal breaker for me, though. I have a hard time reaching the Safety Catch Release with my right thumb. I suppose I could pop it with my left hand, but I think it would still be a little too fiddly to count on when danger threatens.

I really need to get some more factory ammo and reshoot this. My reloads seemed a little on the weak side for this gun, and I had better accuracy results with the PMC and Fiocchi ammo I had previously shot though it. All the local shops seem to have run dry on 32 ACP, and I am hesitant to pay shipping on just a few boxes from an on-line dealer. (And I have already spent my allowance for the next two months on a Beretta 1935--Don't tell SWMBO--so I won't be making any case lot purchases.)

On a side note, I am gradually restoring the H&R to proper operating condition. It was utterly filthy, with about a half pint of dried oil spread generously throughout the action. The left magazine lip was as wavy as a Ruffles potato chip. It needs a new recoil spring, but some one previously had made a brass washer to compress it further and fitted it to the Recoil Spring Guide, where it proceeded to gum up the works by binding in the Recoil Spring plate. I scrubbed and blew out most of the old oil, cut the improvised washer off, stretched the recoil spring and straightened the feed lips on the magazine as best I could. The recoil spring is still too weak, but although I had a couple of rounds fail to fully seat without thumb pressure, the other 6 worked and I was pleased with the group I fired up by the right ear of the silhouette. When I get some more fun money, I'll see if I can't order a new recoil spring. Still hunting for another magazine, too.

[Mk42gunner]

...but my own mother wouldn’t say it was a good group.

Don't be so hard on yourself, at least you got to burn some powder. And learn that you really don't want to carry that pistol in harm's way.

I for one enjoy reading your accounts of shooting actual modern style qualifications with obsolescent pocket pistols of yesteryear.

Robert

[Outpost75]

WW2 acceptance for Wehrmacht 7.65mm pocket pistols was a 10cm, 5-shot group, hand held off sandbags at 15 metres. The best pistols and ammo when fired by an expert pistol shot can accomplish that at 25 metres, but that is the best you can hope for with ordinary wartime ball ammo.

Good handloads and quality modern commercial ammo do about half that.

[rintinglen]

Re Outpost75's observations^

The first Walther PPK I had would shoot like that, (at least with 28 year old eyes) though not if you fired the first round DA--a creepy, 20 lb. trigger pull makes for difficult shooting. The target that came with my first Mauser HSc was fired at 15 meters and would have easily met that standard, and I think some of the other guns I have would do so. For example, that group fired by the H&R measures 1 1/2" on centers and was fired at about 10 yards, two-hands, standing, it might meet the Wehrmacht standard, if they weren't picky about having to push the slide closed. I doubt that the Remington or FN 1910 could though, those sights are just too small. Who knows though, I may just have to do some accuracy testing with these old guns to find out.

One thing I am going to do is load up some more 32 Ammo and boost the powder charges. The stuff I am using now I had loaded for use in my Beretta Tomcat, and was deliberately loaded on the light side to avoid over-stressing and cracking the frame. It was just hot enough to work the slide there. It works very well in my Colt 1903, but several of the other guns barely cycle with it. The Mauser 1914 was only just functioning, and spent cases were only a yard or two away, not landing 12 or 13 feet out like the Fiocchi or PMC did.

[rintinglen]

Hot diggity! My brother broke into his stash and sent me 5 boxes of Norma European 7.65. The Europeans load their 32 ACP with a 73 grain bullet, and launch it a little faster than the American made stuff. That should help with the operation of some of these old guns. And my order from Wolff Springs arrived, so I'll be able to freshen up the springs in a couple of these oldsters, and that should help too. I am particularly hopeful that my H&R may finally join the ranks of the shooters. I hope that I will be able to pick up my Beretta tomorrow.

[rintinglen]

The ancestry of the R51 Unique Pistol extends back to the First World War. France found itself in the unfortunate position of needing more pistols than they could make. The only way they could make more pistols was to divert production capacity from their rifles and machine guns. That, my friends, was not going to happen. So the French, not being complete fools, went outside the country to look for substitute standard pistols. Conveniently, the Basque firearms makers of Spain lay just across the border. It was they who would mass produce the “Ruby” pattern pistols that would serve France through the balance of the war. The Ruby Pistol at its heart was a simplified copy of the Browning 1903, blowback pistol—already produced by Colt and Fabrique Nationale. Roughly 6 inches long, 7.65 x17 caliber, weighing in at about 24 ounces, most of them were 9 shot. Per contract, each gun must have 3 functional magazines. Gabilondo y Urresti of Urbea, Spain, received an initial contract for 10,000 guns a month in 1915. This was promptly increased to 30,000 a month and later to 50,000 a month! As The Gabilondo firm had only about a dozen employees when the work began, they quickly sub-contracted it to several other firms. Yet the ever increasing requirements of the Great War led the French to demand even more. There were ultimately scores of producers who made some 50 discreet different “Ruby” pattern pistols, along the way to an eventual production of over 1,000,000 guns for France, Italy and Spain.
.
This was not without problems, though. Parts interchangeability was virtually non-existent, even amongst pistols of the same manufacture. The magazine from a Liberty would not fit an Izarra, nor that from a Victor fit a Victory. Those from a 1915 gun might fit a 1918 gun of the same maker. Many of the guns were crafted from inferior steel and it has been rumored that they were only expected to last for 500 rounds. France, after the war, took inventory of what they had and realized they would have to do something about these issues. Yet the French liked the guns. They were simple to operate, reasonably durable and cheap. For the most part, they worked. Aside from the need to rationalize parts and improve the quality, France also wanted to keep their money at home. They turned to a French Basque manufacturer, Manufacture d' Armes des Pyrénées Françaises (MAPF) – Hendaye, who responded with a superior “Ruby pattern” pistol.

In 1928, they began producing the R-17, which is visually identical to the “Ruby” pistols, save for the grip panels. Sold in large numbers to the French Police and French Armed forces, they served up to and through the Second World War. The Germans continued to produce them for their own use after conquering France in 1940. They modified the gun to have an exposed hammer and a more comfortable frame, which became the standard “Kreigsmodell” version and was continued after the war by MAPF under the “Unique” Name as the Model Rr-51. From 1951 until the early 2000’s they were widely used by the French police, who purchased over 102,000. They are still maintained in reserve. They were purchased by Morocco as well as Algeria for police work and were for sale in the United States prior to the GCA-68.

Mine is a commercial gun--at least I see no Police or Military markings--and is in pretty good shape for a 60+ year old gun. It has a good feel in the hand; the safety is operable with one hand, the magazine holds 9 rounds, and overall is a simple, robust, blowback pistol. Mine weighs in at a shade over 28 ounces empty (about what the Colt weighs fully loaded). It is just about 5 15/16ths inches long, with a 3 1/8" barrel, and is about 4 ¾” tall and just about 1.1” thick. The magazine holds 9 rounds. Like several other older designs, the hold open on the slide is merely the magazine follower blocking the slide to the rear. There is no slide release lever. You simply pull the magazine down and when the follower clears the base of the breech face, bang: the slide slams shut. You won’t be doing many Chapman 2 second reloads with this.

The sights are a distinct improvement over most of the older pistols. They remind me of the Walther P-38 sights, with a flat post front with a “U” notch in the rear. Mine has proven to be reliable and reasonably accurate. It has a solid, dependable feel in the hand. It seems like a typical Ruger: over-built for the caliber. The only drawback seems to be the utter absence of spare parts—including magazines. I hope that some enterprising surplus importer can pry these guns loose from the French and get the magazines as well. I would like a couple of spares. To the best of my knowledge, the only spares came in about 15 years ago when the Moroccan Police sold their pistols, but that source has long since dried up. The R-17 magazines don't quite fit as found. They are about 15-20 thousandths too thick, I have laboriously sanded one down until I can almost use it. I can force it in and it will feed, but it needs a few more thousands removed to be a proper fit. I will monkey with it a bit more in hopes that I can use it Wednesday.