Winchester Powerpoint - not chambering in 3 different rifles.

[Hannibal]

This may or may not be more information than you want to know. I'll try to explain SAAMI drawings as I understand them regarding headspace dimensions.

On every SAAMI chamber drawing there is a headspace dimension listed identified by an X with a circle around in. It lists a minimum and maximum value. This is ONLY on chamber drawings. The headspace measurement is taken from the chamber end where the case head would sit to a spot on the shoulder angle called a datum point. It is also identified by an x with a circle around it. If you can visualize a perfect circle sitting on the shoulder angle that is perfectly squared and concentric to the overall chamber centerline that's how it is specified to land. The specific diameter of that circle for the datum point is also specified on the chamber drawing. There is no minimum or maximum for that diameter. It's always the same. So the distance between where the cartridge base would sit to that datum circle constitutes the headspace measurement.

There is no headspace measurement specified on a SAAMI cartridge drawing which is what is posted in the thread above. There is the same datum circle identified as was identified in the chamber drawing to the base of the case. That number is listed as a maximum length with a tolerance number by which the case can be shorter. I do not have a 30-06 set of chamber and case drawings sitting in front of me at the moment so unfortunately I can't tell you right now what those numbers are. If you'd like to know I can print a drawing later when I have access to a printer and let you know.

So, that's all well and good. But here's the thing about comparators that can cause your eye to twitch uncontrollably if you don't understand them. A comparator such as the Hornady version has multiple inserts for measuring various cases. The user selects the appropriate insert for the case being measured. It is highly unlikely that the insert is going to contact the case shoulder at the exact spot that the datum line/circle would. The inside diameter of the insert is not going to match the datum diameter exactly. So you aren't going to get a perfect measurement.

So what good is a comparator? It will still provide us a reference number. In your instance, I would take a case fired in your son's rifle and measure in with the comparator. That fired case will come very close to matching the chamber. Some will argue it can take multiple firings and neck sizing only to get really close and that's true but we'll still be within .003" or so 90% of the time. Next, take a piece of the brass you pulled a bullet from and haven't resized and check it with the comparator again. It will be several thousands longer in this particular instance. That additional length is why that case won't chamber in your son's rifle. It's not going to be *exactly* the difference, but within .003" and perhaps less.

Edit to add - I think a lot of the confusion surrounding headspace measurements have to do with the fact that it is based off the datum line on the shoulder and NOT from the base of the case.

Sorry for the long explanation and hopefully it's not too confusing. It makes sense to me when I read it but if something isn't clear feel free to ask.

[M-Tecs]

This may or may not be more information than you want to know. I'll try to explain SAAMI drawings as I understand them regarding headspace dimensions.

On every SAAMI chamber drawing there is a headspace dimension listed identified by an X with a circle around in. It lists a minimum and maximum value. This is ONLY on chamber drawings. The headspace measurement is taken from the chamber end where the case head would sit to a spot on the shoulder angle called a datum point. It is also identified by an x with a circle around it. If you can visualize a perfect circle sitting on the shoulder angle that is perfectly squared and concentric to the overall chamber centerline that's how it is specified to land. The specific diameter of that circle for the datum point is also specified on the chamber drawing. There is no minimum or maximum for that diameter. It's always the same. So the distance between where the cartridge base would sit to that datum circle constitutes the headspace measurement.

There is no headspace measurement specified on a SAAMI cartridge drawing which is what is posted in the thread above. There is the same datum circle identified as was identified in the chamber drawing to the base of the case. That number is listed as a maximum length with a tolerance number by which the case can be shorter. I do not have a 30-06 set of chamber and case drawings sitting in front of me at the moment so unfortunately I can't tell you right now what those numbers are. If you'd like to know I can print a drawing later when I have access to a printer and let you know.

So, that's all well and good. But here's the thing about comparators that can cause your eye to twitch uncontrollably if you don't understand them. A comparator such as the Hornady version has multiple inserts for measuring various cases. The user selects the appropriate insert for the case being measured. It is highly unlikely that the insert is going to contact the case shoulder at the exact spot that the datum line/circle would. The inside diameter of the insert is not going to match the datum diameter exactly. So you aren't going to get a perfect measurement.

So what good is a comparator? It will still provide us a reference number. In your instance, I would take a case fired in your son's rifle and measure in with the comparator. That fired case will come very close to matching the chamber. Some will argue it can take multiple firings and neck sizing only to get really close and that's true but we'll still be within .003" or so 90% of the time. Next, take a piece of the brass you pulled a bullet from and haven't resized and check it with the comparator again. It will be several thousands longer in this particular instance. That additional length is why that case won't chamber in your son's rifle. It's not going to be *exactly* the difference, but within .003" and perhaps less.

Sorry for the long explanation and hopefully it's not too confusing. It makes sense to me when I read it but if something isn't clear feel free to ask.

Very clearly stated. Page 95 here has the SAAMI specs for the 30/06 for both the chamber and the cartridge. https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

As you stated comparators do not read out in direct dimensions unless they are used with a standard like a headspace gauge. They are great for adjusting the die for proper shoulder seatback or for comparing one case to another. For direct dimension I prefer the RCBS precision mic.

This video explains the Hornady using fairly well.

[M-Tecs]

Just ran the headspace comparator. The WW shows 2.062(5), a fire-formed (Starline) case shows 2.055(5). If I understand it right, the comparator gives me a comparison between fired and unfired brass for shoulder set back, but it doesn't actually give me the headspace dimension - is that right? If so, how do I directly measure the headspace of the WW case to see if it's within SAAMI (I just looked it up - I believe it's min-max 2.0487-2.0587)?

Edit: Never mind, got the SAAMI mixed up. Changed to the correct dimensions. The unfired WW case headspace of 2.062(5) is past SAAMI max of 2.0587 and simply put, that's the issue?

Correct, the Hornady doesn't actually give you the headspace dimension. For that you need an actual headspace gauge to calibrate the Hornady comparator or something like the RCBS Percision Mic.

On the 30/06 the datum point diameter is .375" for both the HS and shoulder length. The Hornady does have a .375" bushing so why doesn't the Hornady give an actual or direct measurement? The Hornady design is sound, but it is designed to work with all cartridges at a cost-effective price point.

The Hornady uses two flat surfaces to set the zero point not the actual contact point where the measurement is being taken. The Hornady bushing has a slight radius one the edge and the .375" ID has a + and - tolerance both of which will affect measurements. If it was a true sharp shoulder on a true .375" diameter it would give you a direct reading. Hornady could make them that way but they would need to be hardened and possible ground. That would be cost prohibitive and a poor design. Gauges normally don't use sharp edges due to wear issues. They could use an angled contact area but that would make them shoulder angle specific.

[Hannibal]

I'm surprised that Winchester sent out some cartridges that are out of specifications but obviously mistakes can and do happen.

To the OP - I'm glad the exact issue has been identified. I actually find working on firearms and diagnosing problems to be more interesting and enjoyable than shooting them so I appreciate your posting this. Gave me something to think about and hopefully I've been of at least a little help.

[M-Tecs]

I'm surprised that Winchester sent out some cartridges that are out of specifications but obviously mistakes can and do happen.

To the OP - I'm glad the exact issue has been identified. I actually find working on firearms and diagnosing problems to be more interesting and enjoyable than shooting them so I appreciate your posting this. Gave me something to think about and hopefully I've been of at least a little help.

We know that the cases don't fit the chambers due to the shoulder length being too long for the three rifles they were tried in. What is less clear is if they are actual out of SAAMI spec?

Per SAAMI the headspace is 2.0487 min - 2.0587 max yet the cartridge shoulder datum length is 2.0526" -.007". If the chamber is a min and the case is at max that's 0.0039" interference.

I have never been able to find a satisfactory answer why SAAMI specs are like this? You will find this true on most, if not all SAAMI spec, rimeless shoulder datums.

[M-Tecs]

OK, working on this bit by bit. I did mark up and chamber the case, and here is what I got. Apologies for the quality of the photo:

Attachment 316250

I couldn't see anything on the case, but perhaps you do.

The bright ring at the shoulder/case body junction is your contact area.

[TD1886]

This may or may not be more information than you want to know. I'll try to explain SAAMI drawings as I understand them regarding headspace dimensions.

On every SAAMI chamber drawing there is a headspace dimension listed identified by an X with a circle around in. It lists a minimum and maximum value. This is ONLY on chamber drawings. The headspace measurement is taken from the chamber end where the case head would sit to a spot on the shoulder angle called a datum point. It is also identified by an x with a circle around it. If you can visualize a perfect circle sitting on the shoulder angle that is perfectly squared and concentric to the overall chamber centerline that's how it is specified to land. The specific diameter of that circle for the datum point is also specified on the chamber drawing. There is no minimum or maximum for that diameter. It's always the same. So the distance between where the cartridge base would sit to that datum circle constitutes the headspace measurement.

There is no headspace measurement specified on a SAAMI cartridge drawing which is what is posted in the thread above. There is the same datum circle identified as was identified in the chamber drawing to the base of the case. That number is listed as a maximum length with a tolerance number by which the case can be shorter. I do not have a 30-06 set of chamber and case drawings sitting in front of me at the moment so unfortunately I can't tell you right now what those numbers are. If you'd like to know I can print a drawing later when I have access to a printer and let you know.

So, that's all well and good. But here's the thing about comparators that can cause your eye to twitch uncontrollably if you don't understand them. A comparator such as the Hornady version has multiple inserts for measuring various cases. The user selects the appropriate insert for the case being measured. It is highly unlikely that the insert is going to contact the case shoulder at the exact spot that the datum line/circle would. The inside diameter of the insert is not going to match the datum diameter exactly. So you aren't going to get a perfect measurement.

So what good is a comparator? It will still provide us a reference number. In your instance, I would take a case fired in your son's rifle and measure in with the comparator. That fired case will come very close to matching the chamber. Some will argue it can take multiple firings and neck sizing only to get really close and that's true but we'll still be within .003" or so 90% of the time. Next, take a piece of the brass you pulled a bullet from and haven't resized and check it with the comparator again. It will be several thousands longer in this particular instance. That additional length is why that case won't chamber in your son's rifle. It's not going to be *exactly* the difference, but within .003" and perhaps less.

Edit to add - I think a lot of the confusion surrounding headspace measurements have to do with the fact that it is based off the datum line on the shoulder and NOT from the base of the case.

Sorry for the long explanation and hopefully it's not too confusing. It makes sense to me when I read it but if something isn't clear feel free to ask.

Head space is the distance from the Datum line to the Base of the cartridge. You can also say from the Datum line to breech face.

Not to start any trouble, but headspace gauges have Bases!!! You have to have two point to measure between. I know you know that and you just jumbled the words a little.

What I can't understand is Huntinlever has Winchester factory ammo that won't fit three rifles of different manufacture. He has already established that the case is a wee bit too long in the headspace measurement area. Sized cases fit the rifles just fine. I'd place big money on he doesn't have "excess headspace" in any of the rifles. So why are you and M-TECS so persistant on him measuring headspace? I feel that with M-TECs that he is explaining everything very technically and to the T rather then insisting for Huntinlever to measure the head space. All this man has to do is size his fired cases a little long and keep turning his sizer die in with small increments until the bolt lightly closes on the sized case. You don't want to size the shoulder back any at all from the headspace specs. That how you end up with a head separation eventually which is quite a common problem with belted magnum bottle necked cases as there is most often excess headspace because belts don't do such a great job of headspace as non belted bottleneck cases do. I alway size my belted magnum cases to headspace off that shoulder.

Sorry for the long rant.

[Hannibal]

He's already determined that the cases are longer than the SAAMI headspace specification. So that's where the issue is.

I'm not telling him to measure anything more so I'm confused as to why anyone would think that I am? I only explained SAAMI drawings and comparators to try to help the OP or anyone who looks at this thread now or in the future. I also never said anything about the case or headspace gauges not having a base. What I was attempting to explain is that the base of the cartridge/headspace gauge is not the reference point. The datum line is the reference point. That's a given and indisputable. A chamber has no base. So how does a manufacturer of chamber reamers know how to shape it? By referencing the datum line.

I meant to cause no confusion. Quite the opposite actually. My intent was to clarify things. If you'd like to continue the discussion I've no problem with that so long as we both remain civil and respectful.

As to the OPs issue yes, somehow Winchester apparently shipped some brass that doesn't fall within SAAMI specification. I've no idea how that happened but there it is. And like you, I do not believe any of the 3 rifles the Winchester ammunition was tried in are out of specification regarding headspace. It's a case dimension problem.

Again, I don't believe the OP needs to do any more measuring. I believe the problem has been properly and correctly identified so now all he needs to decide to do is what he wants to do with the out of spec ammunition.

[TD1886]

He's already determined that the cases are longer than the SAAMI headspace specification. So that's where the issue is.

I'm not telling him to measure anything more so I'm confused as to why anyone would think that I am? I only explained SAAMI drawings and comparators to try to help the OP or anyone who looks at this thread now or in the future. I also never said anything about the case or headspace gauges not having a base. What I was attempting to explain is that the base of the cartridge/headspace gauge is not the reference point. The datum line is the reference point. That's a given and indisputable. A chamber has no base. So how does a manufacturer of chamber reamers know how to shape it? By referencing the datum line.

I meant to cause no confusion. Quite the opposite actually. My intent was to clarify things. If you'd like to continue the discussion I've no problem with that so long as we both remain civil and respectful.

As to the OPs issue yes, somehow Winchester apparently shipped some brass that doesn't fall within SAAMI specification. I've no idea how that happened but there it is. And like you, I do not believe any of the 3 rifles the Winchester ammunition was tried in are out of specification regarding headspace. It's a case dimension problem.

Again, I don't believe the OP needs to do any more measuring. I believe the problem has been properly and correctly identified so now all he needs to decide to do is what he wants to do with the out of spec ammunition.

Well let's agree to quit talking SAAMI, headspace, and Datum point. All he needs to do to shoot his rifles is resize his cases and load them. Winchester messed up big time on the ammo he bought and Lord knows how many other boxes they messed up.

I am being civil and so are you so we're good, right??

[M-Tecs]

Well let's agree to quit talking SAAMI, headspace, and Datum point. All he needs to do to shoot his rifles is resize his cases and load them. Winchester messed up big time on the ammo he bought and Lord knows how many other boxes they messed up.

I am being civil and so are you so we're good, right??

Surprised you feel you have the authority to tell others what they should post? In post #6 it was recommended to color the bullet and the case to visually see the interference areas. The OP stated in post #7 he would.

In post #25 the PO posted a picture of the marks near the bullet point wondering if that was the rifling engagement point. What was pictured was not close to the rifling engagement point. Again no one suggest three rifles had undersize HS in the chamber or to measure the chambers, however, throughout this thread various people recommended measuring the offending factory case to see if the factory case were creating headspace issues. Most people understand that you can have headspace issues even if the chamber is in spec. Normally it's seen when the brass is excessively sized due to improper die adjustment. This excessive sizing creates an excessive headspace condition in an in-spec chamber. In this instance the factory case's shoulder dimension is too long. That is still a headspace issue even if the rifles chamber is correct.

The only bad info posted in this thread was

Huntinlever you don't need to do any headspace checking. If that cartridge didn't fit 3 rifles it's not head space. .

Clearly since the case didn't fit there was an interference issue some place?

The OP's post #61 clearly show where the inference was. The OP was not picking up on what the interference marks indicated. What did interference marks indicate???? Suprise of all surprises it indicates a head space issue that was created by the factory cartridge being at the high side of the specs or actually being out of spec.

The OP lacks the proper inspection tools to provide actual numbers per the SAAMI specs so well don't know what the actual measurement is.

Since the OP clearly was not seeing the areas that should be looked at understanding the location and size of the datum points should tell the op where to look. Had the OP followed the recommendation in post #6 like he stated this would have been resolved then without the need to get technical.

As to being good you post what you want and others will post what they want than we all will be good.

[Hannibal]

Well let's agree to quit talking SAAMI, headspace, and Datum point. All he needs to do to shoot his rifles is resize his cases and load them. Winchester messed up big time on the ammo he bought and Lord knows how many other boxes they messed up.

I am being civil and so are you so we're good, right??

Yep. No problem here.

[TD1886]

Surprised you feel you have the authority to tell others what they should post? In post #6 it was recommended to color the bullet and the case to visually see the interference areas. The OP stated in post #7 he would.

In post #25 the PO posted a picture of the marks near the bullet point wondering if that was the rifling engagement point. What was pictured was not close to the rifling engagement point. Again no one suggest three rifles had undersize HS in the chamber or to measure the chambers, however, throughout this thread various people recommended measuring the offending factory case to see if the factory case were creating headspace issues. Most people understand that you can have headspace issues even if the chamber is in spec. Normally it's seen when the brass is excessively sized due to improper die adjustment. This excessive sizing creates an excessive headspace condition in an in-spec chamber. In this instance the factory case's shoulder dimension is too long. That is still a headspace issue even if the rifles chamber is correct.

The only bad info posted in this thread was

Clearly since the case didn't fit there was an interference issue some place?

The OP's post #61 clearly show where the inference was. The OP was not picking up on what the interference marks indicated. What did interference marks indicate???? Suprise of all surprises it indicates a head space issue that was created by the factory cartridge being at the high side of the specs or actually being out of spec.

The OP lacks the proper inspection tools to provide actual numbers per the SAAMI specs so well don't know what the actual measurement is.

Since the OP clearly was not seeing the areas that should be looked at understanding the location and size of the datum points should tell the op where to look. Had the OP followed the recommendation in post #6 like he stated this would have been resolved then without the need to get technical.

As to being good you post what you want and others will post what they want than we all will be good.

Well you got it all wrong. I'm not telling anyone what to post. I'm just tired of this measure the head space. We all know what is the problem. The case is out of specs. I'll wager the three rifles chambers aren't out of spec, but like you said, we can create an out of specs problem real easy. I've been at this a long time, probably longer they you (just a guess) and I know all you're talking about. It was very clear with his markered case what the problem was. So his best bet is to pull all the bullets and save the powder after he weighed enough of the powder charges to get an average and reload them like was suggested. Just hopefully he doesn't push the shoulders back too far creating a "headspace issue".

Sorry you have a problem with me. I don't go around telling people what the worse post was in a thread. Like I said I'm not telling anyone what to post and not to post.

[M-Tecs]

Well you got it all wrong. I'm not telling anyone what to post. I'm just tired of this measure the head space. We all know what is the problem.

The question isn't what you know or what I know. The question is what the OP knows and understands. Not in this thread but the OP has posted asked for guidance how to understand and measure proper shoulder setback for maximum case life. Ops request post #43 https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...ng-Cases/page2

From this thread it's clear that the OP still has a little work to do to understand chamber/case fit issues. While the technical discussion may be tiresome to you it may be helpful for the OP and yes you are telling posters not to post about

Well let's agree to quit talking SAAMI, headspace, and Datum point.

If you have a better way to help the OP understand the relationships of cartridge to chamber fit and the relationship to maximum case life please share it?????

[TD1886]

Huntinlever, if you would like a free cartridge checking gauge for your 30-06 pm me and we will discuss it. I'll mail you a new one. I believe you will like it.

[TD1886]

The question isn't what you know or what I know. The question is what the OP knows and understands. Not in this thread but the OP has posted asked for guidance how to understand and measure proper shoulder setback for maximum case life. Ops request post #43 https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...ng-Cases/page2

From this thread it's clear that the OP still has a little work to do to understand chamber/case fit issues. While the technical discussion may be tiresome to you it may be helpful for the OP and yes you are telling posters not to post about

If you have a better way to help the OP understand the relationships of cartridge to chamber fit and the relationship to maximum case life please share it?????

Okay M-Tecs, you have the nerve and balls to accuse me of all the accussations you just mentioned. Well let's look at your post to Huntinlever where you basically called him a Troll!!!!!!

"I am to the point where I think we might be being trolled? Started as his sons 30/06 Savage 110 than switched to a Marlin 336 back to a 30/06. This as simple of problem to diagnose as there is. There are only five variables. Bullet is seated out too long, neck is too large, headspace or AOL of the case is too long, the radical diameter of the body is too large/bent or the bullet has been seated crooked. For the cartridges to not properly chamber there has to be interference/contact.
? Over 1000 posts and M-Tecs you suspect I might be trolling? As I said, and I don't want to go into it, I apologized for the confusion. To make it clear, my cervical spine was damaged many years ago and since 2008 it's been a slow, steady issue of total body, constant central pain, loss of sensation and cognitive "fuzzing," as frustrating as it can be to anyone - most especially me, I can assure anyone. I can be lucid and clear, then a jumbled mass of wiring can cause me to do seemingly nonsensical things. So - enough there. Sorry again for the confusion. I'm trying to be clear so it's no more confusing than I already made it above.

Anyway, no, I wasn't and am not now trolling. Any confusion on my part stems from my complete lack of gunsmithing knowledge. As I've said. Anyway, I appreciate the input and will be attempting to go through the suggestions methodically, though I am truly glad to reload for him. I have been away and will be hoping to take a look tonight."

Yeah, you're trying to help him alright. Remember who called you a troll Paul.

[M-Tecs]

Okay M-Tecs, you have the nerve and balls to accuse me of all the accussations you just mentioned. Well let's look at your post to Huntinlever where you basically called him a Troll!!!!!!

"I am to the point where I think we might be being trolled? Started as his sons 30/06 Savage 110 than switched to a Marlin 336 back to a 30/06. This as simple of problem to diagnose as there is. There are only five variables. Bullet is seated out too long, neck is too large, headspace or AOL of the case is too long, the radical diameter of the body is too large/bent or the bullet has been seated crooked. For the cartridges to not properly chamber there has to be interference/contact.
? Over 1000 posts and M-Tecs you suspect I might be trolling? As I said, and I don't want to go into it, I apologized for the confusion. To make it clear, my cervical spine was damaged many years ago and since 2008 it's been a slow, steady issue of total body, constant central pain, loss of sensation and cognitive "fuzzing," as frustrating as it can be to anyone - most especially me, I can assure anyone. I can be lucid and clear, then a jumbled mass of wiring can cause me to do seemingly nonsensical things. So - enough there. Sorry again for the confusion. I'm trying to be clear so it's no more confusing than I already made it above.

Anyway, no, I wasn't and am not now trolling. Any confusion on my part stems from my complete lack of gunsmithing knowledge. As I've said. Anyway, I appreciate the input and will be attempting to go through the suggestions methodically, though I am truly glad to reload for him. I have been away and will be hoping to take a look tonight."

Yeah, you're trying to help him alright. Remember who called you a troll Paul.

So he explained he has some medical issues that create additional challenges. I take him at his word for that. Sorry he is going thru that. It just means we need to work harder to help him understand the question he asked in this thread and the other one. While your solution to just resize and load will work for the offending cases how does that help him understand the issues????

A while back a help a local with some basic machining issues. After a while I thought he was trolling me based on the question/answers he was not repeatedly understanding. He finally fessed up he was dyslexic. Changed approaches on teaching and that worked out well. He tended to see blueprints in mirror image.

Again, if you have a better way to help the OP understand the relationships of cartridge to chamber fit and the relationship to maximum case life please share it????? I've spent hours on both threads giving detailed answers and links to try to help him. Why would I do that unless I was trying to help?????

If you are tired of reading technical posts simple solution for you. Don't read them.

TD1886 I have no animus towards you. I simply don't agree that the OP would not benefit from understanding the datum points/spec and measuring particularly since the OP has repeated asked for that type of info. Same for the need to quit talking SAAMI, headspace, and Datum points. On a side note, I am also a Trapdoor Springfield fan. I've been shooting and reloading for them since 1968.

[TD1886]

So he explained he has some medical issues that create additional challenges. I take him at his word for that. Sorry he is going thru that. It just means we need to work harder to help him understand the question he asked in this thread and the other one. While your solution to just resize and load will work for the offending cases how does that help him understand the issues????

A while back a help a local with some basic machining issues. After a while I thought he was trolling me based on the question/answers he was not repeatedly understanding. He finally fessed up he was dyslexic. Changed approaches on teaching and that worked out well. He tended to see blueprints in mirror image.

Again, if you have a better way to help the OP understand the relationships of cartridge to chamber fit and the relationship to maximum case life please share it????? I've spent hours on both threads giving detailed answers and links to try to help him. Why would I do that unless I was trying to help?????

If you are tired of reading technical posts simple solution for you. Don't read them.

TD1886 I have no animus towards you. I simply don't agree that the OP would not benefit from understanding the datum points/spec and measuring particularly since the OP has repeated asked for that type of info. Same for the need to quit talking SAAMI, headspace, and Datum points. On a side note, I am also a Trapdoor Springfield fan. I've been shooting and reloading for them since 1968.

Let's get back to the topic of the thread. Seems now we are on the same page and understand one another. As far as shooting and reloading I believe I have you beat by 10 years or more. My forte are 1911's and AR's. I also have a fondness for the 45-70 thus the handle TD1886, mines an 1886 carbine and I got it shooting better then very well.

Okay have a good night.

[FergusonTO35]

So, would any of this stuff apply to a rifle where a batch of factory ammo chambers fine but has really sticky extraction?

[TD1886]

So, would any of this stuff apply to a rifle where a batch of factory ammo chambers fine but has really sticky extraction?

Huntinlever's problem appears to be factory ammo that isn't in specs with the headspace specifications and won't fit his chambers. You say your ammo fits fine, but has stick extraction. First thing that pops into my mind is that ammo is hot for your particular rifle and chamber. Do you think the ammo is hot? Do you have any signs of higher then normal pressures like swelled case near the web or even (and not a good one to go by) are their excessively flattend primers? Is your chamber rough? Do you have a chronograph and see what the velocity is? If it's way over what is specified for that ammo something is going on. Lots of things can cause this.

[huntinlever]

I would like to thank everyone for your assistance. Most of you have been quite helpful and though the technical info is something I will have to chew on, it has been a good bit of education, with much more to learn and I've gained from it. My aims, always, are pretty narrow - I only want to kill humanely within the limits of my hunting abilities, so the deeper aspects of precision shooting and some of the material involved in that is beyond my world, but it's fascinating nonetheless.

In particular most of you came at this with a good deal of generosity of spirit, even patience, with this rank amateur, and that doesn't go unappreciated.

I can close at least my participation now. Good shooting all.