Winchester Powerpoint - not chambering in 3 different rifles.

[huntinlever]

OK, working on this bit by bit. I did mark up and chamber the case, and here is what I got. Apologies for the quality of the photo:




I couldn't see anything on the case, but perhaps you do.

I do have the Hornady comparator and OAL gauge as I used it to first set up his loads, bumping the shoulder back (have it in my notes, don't recall offhand how much). I don't remember how to use it, so am re-reading the instructions. I'll report back.

[Hannibal]

Hard to tell for certain and perhaps it's just the lighting but there appears to be a line around the shoulder/case side transition.

[huntinlever]

Just ran the headspace comparator. The WW shows 2.062(5), a fire-formed (Starline) case shows 2.055(5). If I understand it right, the comparator gives me a comparison between fired and unfired brass for shoulder set back, but it doesn't actually give me the headspace dimension - is that right? If so, how do I directly measure the headspace of the WW case to see if it's within SAAMI (I just looked it up - I believe it's min-max 2.0487-2.0587)?

Edit: Never mind, got the SAAMI mixed up. Changed to the correct dimensions. The unfired WW case headspace of 2.062(5) is past SAAMI max of 2.0587 and simply put, that's the issue?

[huntinlever]

Hard to tell for certain and perhaps it's just the lighting but there appears to be a line around the shoulder/case side transition.

Thanks. What would that tell you, if so?

[TD1886]

Just ran the headspace comparator. The WW shows 2.062, a fire-formed (Starline) case shows 2.050. If I understand it right, the comparator gives me a comparison between fired and unfired brass for shoulder set back, but it doesn't actually give me the headspace dimension - is that right? If so, how do I directly measure the headspace of the WW case to see if it's within SAAMI (I just looked it up - I believe it's min-max 2.487-2.587)?

Did you measure the lenght of that Winchester case? Compare that to what the specs say it should be. Here's another think you can do. Pull another cartridge apart. Marker is up as good as you can. Let it dry good. Lightly lube it with your sizing lube and size it in your sizer die. It should go easy because sizing has been done at the factory. What I'm looking for is to see where your sizer die rubs any of the marker off if it does at all.

The shell you chambered, did you chamber it all the way and the bolt closed? Or did you just push it in as far as it would go and then stop?

[huntinlever]

Did you measure the lenght of that Winchester case? Compare that to what the specs say it should be. Here's another think you can do. Pull another cartridge apart. Marker is up as good as you can. Let it dry good. Lightly lube it with your sizing lube and size it in your sizer die. It should go easy because sizing has been done at the factory. What I'm looking for is to see where your sizer die rubs any of the marker off if it does at all.

The shell you chambered, did you chamber it all the way and the bolt closed? Or did you just push it in as far as it would go and then stop?

Thanks, will do. The case OAL is 2.487, which puts it below SAAMI max (2.502?), right? So that shouldn't be the problem?

For the case, I drove the bolt forward to stopping, just a bit more force (not much), bolt won't close. Then ejected.

[TD1886]

Thanks. What would that tell you, if so?

That would tell you the case is too long in the body, that is from head to that should/wall junction. In other words the case is long in headspace. The shoulder hadn't been pushed back far enough. You could also lube that case up and turn your sizer die out and size the case by turning the sizer die in with very small increments till it just touhes the shoulder and keep trying it in the rifle. When when it chambers with an easy bolt closing stop there. That would definitely tell us the case is too long from it's datum line to the head.

[huntinlever]

That would tell you the case is too long in the body, that is from head to that should/wall junction. In other words the case is long in headspace. The shoulder hadn't been pushed back far enough. You could also lube that case up and turn your sizer die out and size the case by turning the sizer die in with very small increments till it just touhes the shoulder and keep trying it in the rifle. When when it chambers with an easy bolt closing stop there. That would definitely tell us the case is too long from it's datum line to the head.

Gotcha, OK, thanks. I have the sizing die dialed in for shoulder set back, and don't want to mess with that any, then. I'll try sizing the marked up case and post a photo, and then I'll likely leave it there as I'm happy with his reloads.

[TD1886]

Here are the SAAMI dimensions for the 30-06 cartridge:

[huntinlever]

Here are the SAAMI dimensions for the 30-06 cartridge:

Thanks. The one I have is from 2015, but to be honest I'm unclear how to read it. So from your image, do I have it right, the case OAL should be 2.494" - 2.514", so the WW case, being 2.487, is actually a bit shorter than minimum, so the OAL isn't the problem, right?

However, the Hornady comparator measurement gave 2.0625. Do I have it right that your SAAMI gives 2.0526 - 2.0596, so that might be the problem - the WW headspace exceeds the SAAMI max?

[huntinlever]

Here's the WW case, sized. The only thing I could make out is this line around the neck - that's the headspace line, correct?

[TD1886]

Thanks. The one I have is from 2015, but to be honest I'm unclear how to read it. So from your image, do I have it right, the case OAL should be 2.494" - 2.514", so the WW case, being 2.487, is actually a bit shorter than minimum, so the OAL isn't the problem, right?

However, the Hornady comparator measurement gave 2.0625. Do I have it right that your SAAMI gives 2.0526 - 2.0596, so that might be the problem - the WW headspace exceeds the SAAMI max?

They have minimum and maximum measurements as it's pretty hard to have them dead on or another way it cost time and money to do so.

[TD1886]

Here's the WW case, sized. The only thing I could make out is this line around the neck - that's the headspace line, correct?

I believe you are talking the line on the shoulder and yes that is in the Datum line area. So far that is telling me that those Winchesters are a tad on the long side for headspace.

[huntinlever]

They have minimum and maximum measurements as it's pretty hard to have them dead on or another way it cost time and money to do so.

Yeah, I knew that - and these aren't really hard specs, right? I.e., a bit under min or over max is still doable?

[TD1886]

Paul you never did say how hard exactly it was to chamber that case. Did you actually get the bolt to close? If so how hard was it levering the bolt down?

[huntinlever]

I believe you are talking the line on the shoulder and yes that is in the Datum line area. So far that is telling me that those Winchesters are a tad on the long side for headspace.

Great, thanks! Can you tell me what you are seeing about the location of the datum line that tells you the headspace might be a bit too long?

[TD1886]

Those min/max specs are the parameters that the factory operates under and their quality control division set. Those also have to fit in with the min/max dimensions the firearm manufactures cut their chambers. The manufactures have those SAAMI specs as guide lines.

[TD1886]

Great, thanks! Can you tell me what you are seeing about the location of the datum line that tells you the headspace might be a bit too long?

To me it appears Winchester sized those a wee bit on the max sided or little more.

[TD1886]

They are still very usuable just pull them down and make sure you weight the powder charge of more then one or two cases to get an average, save the powder, and then pull the expander plug from your sizer die and size them so as not to disturb the powder (but be informed you will have to put the expander back in to expand them to the correct size again and best to run out your die so the decapping pin doesn't get anyways near touching the primers) powder them after you set your measure and seat the bullets. None of it is unsafe so don't worry there. You only want to the expander to go through the neck and pull it out then.

Make sure you try a shell or two after sizing to make certain they fit in all three rifles.

[huntinlever]

They are still very usuable just pull them down and make sure you weight the powder charge of more then one or two cases to get an average, save the powder, and then pull the expander plug from your sizer die and size them so as not to disturb the powder (but be informed you will have to put the expander back in to expand them to the correct size again and best to run out your die so the decapping pin doesn't get anyways near touching the primers) powder them after you set your measure and seat the bullets. None of it is unsafe so don't worry there. You only want to the expander to go through the neck and pull it out then.

Make sure you try a shell or two after sizing to make certain they fit in all three rifles.

Thanks. Tucked away for future use.