Winchester Powerpoint - not chambering in 3 different rifles.

[FergusonTO35]

????????? That's not how headspace works. Headspace on bottleneck cartridges is a specific dimension from the base to a datum point on the shoulder. Nothing more. Headspace is independent of radial body and throat measurements.

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...-need-to-know/

Ida know, that gunsmith is now retired and my dad just uses this rifle with factory ammo so I'm not going to worry about it.

[huntinlever]

Thanks guys, I'll have to go through your posts to make sure I understand them, then try them out. Couple questions for now. One, presuming I'm doing it all right, is that the marked up bullets...I think if I'm understanding correctly, neither the WW nor Hornady's are showing any rifling on them. If not, what should I be looking for, then? On the bullets themselves, just to say it clearly so I hope it's helpful:

1. The marked up WW bullets are showing these small vertical lines starting at the juncture of the lead nose and jacket, they are basically in a radial pattern around the bullet, and they only extend shortly down the jacket. I'm not seeing any other marks.

2. The marked up Hornady, I'm not seeing that same set of vertical lines from the nose-jacket juncture. I do see a thin ring around the bearing surface of the Hornady, close to the case mouth. I can't explain that. Wouldn't a expect some sort of a rifling pattern on either?

3. Pulling the bullet and checking the (primed) empty case for chambering. Other commercial ammo and my own handloads (I've used Rm, WW and now Starline brass) all load without any issues at all. Hannibal are you saying perhaps somehow the failed cartridges, the cases themselves might be substantially out of spec?

Thanks again, I'll work on the rest and report back.

4. I did try inserting the WW bullet in the muzzle. It goes almost but not quite all the way to the case mouth.

5. As you can see from the WW/Hornady picture, the two bullets are shaped significantly differently: the WW is shorter, more squat, with a more gently tapering ogive, and the Hornady is longer and what looks to me like something of a flat part near the case mouth, and a

[Hannibal]

Thanks guys, I'll have to go through your posts to make sure I understand them, then try them out. Couple questions for now. One, presuming I'm doing it all right, is that the marked up bullets...I think if I'm understanding correctly, neither the WW nor Hornady's are showing any rifling on them. If not, what should I be looking for, then? On the bullets themselves, just to say it clearly so I hope it's helpful:

1. The marked up WW bullets are showing these small vertical lines starting at the juncture of the lead nose and jacket, they are basically in a radial pattern around the bullet, and they only extend shortly down the jacket. I'm not seeing any other marks.

2. The marked up Hornady, I'm not seeing that same set of vertical lines from the nose-jacket juncture. I do see a thin ring around the bearing surface of the Hornady, close to the case mouth. I can't explain that. Wouldn't a expect some sort of a rifling pattern on either?

3. Pulling the bullet and checking the (primed) empty case for chambering. Other commercial ammo and my own handloads (I've used Rm, WW and now Starline brass) all load without any issues at all. Hannibal are you saying perhaps somehow the failed cartridges, the cases themselves might be substantially out of spec?

Thanks again, I'll work on the rest and report back.

3. I did try inserting the WW bullet in the muzzle. It goes almost but not quite all the way to the case mouth.

4. As you can see from the WW/Hornady picture, the two bullets are shaped significantly differently: the WW is shorter, more squat, with a more gently tapering ogive, and the Hornady is longer and what looks to me like something of a flat part near the case mouth, and a

In response to #3, yes. That would be a very quick way to find out if we're dealing with a problem with the loaded length/bullet or a case that's out of spec.

[TD1886]

Your muzzle test of the bullet is fine, it's not the bullets that are stopping the cartridges from fitting the chambers.

Waiting to hear what the empty case fit is.

[Polymath]

Years ago before I started reloading I came across a few double boxes of 22-250 win white box SP that were tight to chamber. They also had loose primers from the factory and about 75 out of 80 rounds smoked the primer. Soot all around the primer seat and head stamp. Tried to call Winchester but never got through.

Sounds to me like they were out of spec. Try reseating them to correct OAL.
That being said I found the wrong bullet size in a 32 Win SPL.
I miked the neck as it looked off. Yep it was the wrong bullet.

[Hannibal]

I suppose someone could have switched some cartridges around somewhere along the way, so you should probably check all the headstamps too.

Never know what might happen or how.

[TD1886]

Years ago before I started reloading I came across a few double boxes of 22-250 win white box SP that were tight to chamber. They also had loose primers from the factory and about 75 out of 80 rounds smoked the primer. Soot all around the primer seat and head stamp. Tried to call Winchester but never got through.

Sounds to me like they were out of spec. Try reseating them to correct OAL.
That being said I found the wrong bullet size in a 32 Win SPL.
I miked the neck as it looked off. Yep it was the wrong bullet.

Funny you mention that Winchester White Label ammo because their is a lot of bad about it on YouTube.

[TD1886]

I suppose someone could have switched some cartridges around somewhere along the way, so you should probably check all the headstamps too.

Never know what might happen or how.

Do ever know what the cartridge is that the OP has? Is it 30-06? Or did I miss him mentioning the caliber?

[Hannibal]

Do ever know what the cartridge is that the OP has? Is it 30-06? Or did I miss him mentioning the caliber?

He started the thread speaking about a 30-06 but then things got a bit confusing as to exactly what it is then last I know he specified that it is a 30-06. Only reason I mention it is I always like to back up and check all the details when a problem arises and particularly the things that are easiest and don't take but a few minutes.

He stated it's factory ammunition and Winchester Power Points so it should be appropriately stamped.

[M-Tecs]

I am to the point where I think we might be being trolled? Started as his sons 30/06 Savage 110 than switched to a Marlin 336 back to a 30/06. This as simple of problem to diagnose as there is. There are only five variables. Bullet is seated out too long, neck is too large, headspace or AOL of the case is too long, the radical diameter of the body is too large/bent or the bullet has been seated crooked. For the cartridges to not properly chamber there has to be interference/contact.

Inserting a magic marker colored cartridge carefully into the chamber will show where the interference is. Apparently, the OP is unwilling to do that simple test or use his Hornady headspace comparator. I know the OP also has an RCBS precision case mic for 338, not sure about the 30/06. That would resolve the headspace issue since it reads in actual headspace dimensions.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...ng-Cases/page2

[Hannibal]

Perhaps, but I fail to understand what the motivation would be? The OP did come back and ask clear, concise questions so I'm not ready to start assuming things just yet. I'm guessing the OP is at work and can't check anything right now.

I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt up until the point where the prove to me they don't deserve that privilege.

[TD1886]

I am to the point where I think we might be being trolled? Started as his sons 30/06 Savage 110 than switched to a Marlin 336 back to a 30/06. This as simple of problem to diagnose as there is. There are only five variables. Bullet is seated out too long, neck is too large, headspace or AOL of the case is too long, the radical diameter of the body is too large/bent or the bullet has been seated crooked. For the cartridges to not properly chamber there has to be interference/contact.

Inserting a magic marker colored cartridge carefully into the chamber will show where the interference is. Apparently, the OP is unwilling to do that simple test or use his Hornady headspace comparator. I know the OP also has an RCBS precision case mic for 338, not sure about the 30/06. That would resolve the headspace issue since it reads in actual headspace dimensions.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...ng-Cases/page2

Yeah M-Tecs I'm scratching my head too. I'd like to know how much it lacks from fully chambering. If it's to the point where the bolt lugs (on the bolt action rifles) just start to engage, hell lug her down and see what you got especially with a marker pen colored cartridge.

[huntinlever]

? Over 1000 posts and M-Tecs you suspect I might be trolling? As I said, and I don't want to go into it, I apologized for the confusion. To make it clear, my cervical spine was damaged many years ago and since 2008 it's been a slow, steady issue of total body, constant central pain, loss of sensation and cognitive "fuzzing," as frustrating as it can be to anyone - most especially me, I can assure anyone. I can be lucid and clear, then a jumbled mass of wiring can cause me to do seemingly nonsensical things. So - enough there. Sorry again for the confusion. I'm trying to be clear so it's no more confusing than I already made it above.

Anyway, no, I wasn't and am not now trolling. Any confusion on my part stems from my complete lack of gunsmithing knowledge. As I've said. Anyway, I appreciate the input and will be attempting to go through the suggestions methodically, though I am truly glad to reload for him. I have been away and will be hoping to take a look tonight.

Thanks again.

[huntinlever]

Just pulled the bullet. Seems you guys nailed it. The empty case will not chamber. I'm going to be taking some measurements, as best as I can, and report.

[BK7saum]

Are there any flat spots or marks on the case indicating it or the box of cartridges were dropped? That can create an out-of-round condition ti cause interference. Just pondering.

[Hannibal]

Just pulled the bullet. Seems you guys nailed it. The empty case will not chamber. I'm going to be taking some measurements, as best as I can, and report.

PM me if you like. It's not that difficult to check a headspace measurement if you don't get all hung up on specific numbers. A makeshift comparator is pretty easy to come up with.

And at least now we know it's a case problem. No need to try to beat the bolt closed.

Sheesh.

[ulav8r]

Pull all the bullets, Weigh the powder charges from at least 10 cartridges and save the powder. Then remove the depriming pin from your sizing die and size the cases until they fit the chamber properly. Now load them with the original powder and bullets. If the original charges had much variation in weight, then strive to improve the consistency of the charges..

[TD1886]

Pull all the bullets, Weigh the powder charges from at least 10 cartridges and save the powder. Then remove the depriming pin from your sizing die and size the cases until they fit the chamber properly. Now load them with the original powder and bullets. If the original charges had much variation in weight, then strive to improve the consistency of the charges..

You beat me to it, was just going to suggest that.

Huntinlever you don't need to do any headspace checking. If that cartridge didn't fit 3 rifles it's not head space. Just do what was suggested here and don't worry about it. If they are out of round doesn't make a difference, sizing them will cure that too. Just make sure you don't size the shoulders back too far. Will be interesting in seeing how consistant Winchester was in powder measurements.

Sorry to hear about your spine and I do hope that it gets better. Hang in there.

[M-Tecs]

Huntinlever you don't need to do any headspace checking. If that cartridge didn't fit 3 rifles it's not head space. .

You are aware that both the cartridge and the chamber have SAAMI specific dimensions at the headspace datum point? You can find the 30/06 data on page 95 below. They are both very much related.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

[TD1886]

You are aware that both the cartridge and the chamber have SAAMI specific dimensions at the headspace datum point? You can find the 30/06 data on page 95 below. They are both very much related.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

Yes I know that. To me it sounds like the Winchester cases are too big, or better said too long. How many times have you seen a factory box of ammo that would chamber in three different rifles? I remember a good number of years ago I was reloading for a friend of and his twin brother. Happen to be a 30-06. Bullets were Sierra 168 grain GameKings. Loaded them and I get a call from his said that they fit his rifle, but not his brother's. His rifle was a Model 70 Winchester post 64. His brother's was a Model 700 Remington. So I took his brothers ammo and pulled it down and over cammed the ram and that was just enough that they chambered easy. He had a tight chamber.

Anyways I don't believe Huntinlever has three different rifles with head space on the tight side. He never did mention about the black marker pen ink on the case he tried to chamber.