Winchester Powerpoint - not chambering in 3 different rifles.

[huntinlever]

FWIW, I did recall seeing some others here and there with a similar issue. Quick search, yielded this. https://www.snipershide.com/shooting...e-box.7005789/

Note he's talking about 2 different rifles:

Today, I was going through all of my old(er) inventory and thought I'd dig a little deeper into an issue I had with some cartridges in a box of Winchester Ballistic Silvertip 150 gr ammo for 300 WSM I'd marked "DO NOT USE! 4 cartridges will not chamber in either of my 300 WSM rifles"

I wondered if anybody else had the same experience as I had with this ammo. Google hit on this very SH thread.

I've put perhaps a half dozen boxes of this factory ammo thru my 2 300 WSM's (both stock, off-the-shelf rifles). I had attempted to reach out to Winchester Ammunition on 3 separate occasions over the years to see what their response would be about such failures with this ammo. Never heard back.

Anyway, today after I verified that the 4 cartridges wouldn't chamber in either of my 300 WSM rifles, that the bolt wouldn't close, I measured them with my Hornady headspace comparator using the E420 insert. WOW! The shoulders of these 4 cartridges measure between 3 and 6 thousandths bigger than what the rifles can take (based on fireformed case measurements); between 7 and 10 thousandths bigger than the good factory ammo cartridges. So, yes, they cannot be chambered, the shoulder is not setback far enough to fit the chamber's headspace.

I will try the bullet-markup and report back. Ultimately I'm reloading anyway.

[FergusonTO35]

That's interesting. Thankfully we'll probably not be needing them again since we've a good load for his rifle now. Crazy, to me, anyway, that 3 rifles didn't take to them too well. Pretty low on the "problem' totem pole - just grateful autumn is coming.

A very qualified gunsmith told me the BLR has to have a tight chamber to headspace properly. Some brass won't fit even when sized with an RCBS small base die. Recently I had a batch of Armscor 147 FMJ that had super sticky extraction. I think these rounds were loaded warm, and that combined with the tight chamber is the problem. I'm going to pull the bullets and reduce the charge to see if that changes anything.

[TD1886]

Like a Soap Opera, I'm dying for the next episode on the marker pen results!!! LOL

As an add on a friend told me on YouTube there has been mention of Winchester White Label Ammo having lots of problems. Maybe they are having a quality control issue.

[M-Tecs]

A very qualified gunsmith told me the BLR has to have a tight chamber to headspace properly.

????????? That's not how headspace works. Headspace on bottleneck cartridges is a specific dimension from the base to a datum point on the shoulder. Nothing more. Headspace is independent of radial body and throat measurements.

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...-need-to-know/

[huntinlever]

Well, not sure if this shows anything. Black marker on the jackets. Sorry for the quality of the photo, best I could get with my phone. The only thing I noticed on all the rounds in this box that failed to chamber, are lines near the lead nose extending down a bit into the jacketing. I presume those are rifling marks?



Does this suggest some of these are just jamming into the lands, whereas others, likely didn't?

You can see the nose deformation on the left one, but I suspect that happened when the round was ejected.

[M-Tecs]

Well, not sure if this shows anything. Sorry for the quality of the photo, best I could get with my phone. The only thing I noticed on all the rounds in this box that failed to chamber, are lines near the lead nose extending down a bit into the jacketing. I presume those are rifling marks?



Does this suggest some of these are just jamming into the lands, whereas others, likely didn't?

You can see the nose deformation on the left one, but I suspect that happened when the round was ejected.

From what I see those are from chambering/ejecting. What's the rest of the case look like? Take you caliper and set it at .300". That is where rifling marks should start on the bullet.

If you roll the offending cartridges do you see visible bullet run-out?

[huntinlever]

From what I see those are from chambering/ejecting. What's the rest of the case look like? Take you caliper and set it at .300". That is where rifling marks should start on the bullet.

If you roll the offending cartridges do you see visible bullet run-out?

Apologies M-Tecs, really limited understanding of this stuff. If you mean to set the calipers to 0.300 and see where they fall on the bullet, they were way, way closer the case mouth where the 0.300 met the bullet. I'm not seeing anything on the bullets where the calipers land (there), just those grooves right by the nose. When you say the rest of the case, not sure what I should be looking for, sorry.

I did mark up a Hornady 180 I loaded today. The only thing I noticed was a ring, and that's right where 0.300 lines up on the bullet - the Hornady is on the right, the WW PP is on the left.


Does that suggest something?

Can you please tell me what this means:

If you roll the offending cartridges do you see visible bullet run-out?

[Hannibal]

Let's back up a minute. Take a cartridge that won't chamber and use a single stage press to pull the bullet. Dump the power. See if it will chamber then. Don't get aggressive with it, just normal pressure.

Do take proper precautions because you'll still have a live primer.

You can use a pair of side cutters/wire cutters to grab the bullet with. Just pay attention and make sure you get just the bullet and not the brass neck. Otherwise it won't tell us anything.

[TD1886]

Huntinlever the rifles you mentioned the ammo won't fit, none of them are control feed (like a 98 Mauser the claw controls the cartridge right out of the magazine) so when you marker pen them you carefully drop them in the chamber and close the bolt on them doing all this in a safe manner and area. You also extract and eject them slow and careful. All this to insure no marks on the bullet/case other then what the chamber would leave if there is something in the chamber to do so. Also from from your pictures, esp the Winchester cartridge I don't see your bullet touching the rifling or leade.

Another way to do the test that M-Tec asked you to do is stick the bullet nose first into the muzzle and see how far up the bullet the muzzle goes.

[Hannibal]

Huntinlever the rifles you mentioned the ammo won't fit, none of them are control feed (like a 98 Mauser the claw controls the cartridge right out of the magazine) so when you marker pen them you carefully drop them in the chamber and close the bolt on them doing all this in a safe manner and area. You also extract and eject them slow and careful. All this to insure no marks on the bullet/case other then what the chamber would leave if there is something in the chamber to do so. Also from from your pictures, esp the Winchester cartridge I don't see your bullet touching the rifling or leade.

Another way to do the test that M-Tec asked you to do is stick the bullet nose first into the muzzle and see how far up the bullet the muzzle goes.

What's that going to show? It's not a cast lead bore rider and that says nothing about the freebore or leade.

This is why I suggested that he pull a bullet and see if the case will chamber without excessive force.

[M-Tecs]

What's that going to show? It's not a cast lead bore rider and that says nothing about the freebore or leade.

This is why I suggested that he pull a bullet and see if the case will chamber without excessive force.

It will show the OP where the rifling will engage the bullet if it's being jammed into the rifling. The OP appears to be looking in the wrong area. Since most 30 Cal bores are .300" rifling jamming will only happen on the portion of the bullet that is .300" or larger. The exceptions are if the bullets are seated crooked. TD1886 suggestion will show the OP the same for where rifling engagement could happen.

Same for a magic marker on the case. It will show contact areas. It's a process of elimination. A magic marker colored case carefully inserted and extracted will show either headspace issues, bullet jamming, neck or body contact or excessive run-out.

[huntinlever]

What's that going to show? It's not a cast lead bore rider and that says nothing about the freebore or leade.

This is why I suggested that he pull a bullet and see if the case will chamber without excessive force.

Hannibal, I have a bullet puller (hammer type) - you mean, just pull the bullet and see if the case chambers without issue?

[Hannibal]

Hannibal, I have a bullet puller (hammer type) - you mean, just pull the bullet and see if the case chambers without issue?

Yes. Just to eliminate a possibility or 2.

[Hannibal]

It will show the OP where the rifling will engage the bullet if it's being jammed into the rifling. Same for a magic marker on the case. It will show contact areas.

I get that. I'm suggesting that he pull a bullet and see if an empty case will chamber. If it does then we know it's a bullet too long for the chambering at that particular seating depth.

If it doesn't then it's either a headspace issue or an over-caliber bullet diameter.

As I mentioned earlier I am puzzled why 3 different rifles won't chamber this ammunition since it's factory.

[TD1886]

I get that. I'm suggesting that he pull a bullet and see if an empty case will chamber. If it does then we know it's a bullet too long for the chambering at that particular seating depth.

If it doesn't then it's either a headspace issue or an over-caliber bullet diameter.

As I mentioned earlier I am puzzled why 3 different rifles won't chamber this ammunition since it's factory.

If it is a headspace problem it would have to be with the ammo. I doubt that three different rifles have excessively tight headspace.

You also realize that if he pulls that one cartridge apart Winchester isn't going to deal with should he decide to send them back.

The picture of the one Winchester he pictured does not appear to have the bullet seated out too far and I'm wondering if Med-Tecs may be thinking that the bullet might be a little larger then it should be for the caliber.

[M-Tecs]

I'm wondering if Med-Tecs may be thinking that the bullet might be a little larger then it should be for the caliber.

No I am not wondering if the bullet is too large. That would show on the case neck. Just tying to point out to the OP where jam marks would be located on the bullet.

[Hannibal]

If it is a headspace problem it would have to be with the ammo. I doubt that three different rifles have excessively tight headspace.

You also realize that if he pulls that one cartridge apart Winchester isn't going to deal with should he decide to send them back.

The picture of the one Winchester he pictured does not appear to have the bullet seated out too far and I'm wondering if Med-Tecs may be thinking that the bullet might be a little larger then it should be for the caliber.

If he's worried about the price of one cartridge then yes. Save it and send it back and see what the manufacturer wants to do.

If he's the curious type like I am and wants to understand exactly what the problem is and isn't worried about a couple of bucks this is a good place to start.

[TD1886]

If he's worried about the price of one cartridge then yes. Save it and send it back and see what the manufacturer wants to do.

If he's the curious type like I am and wants to understand exactly what the problem is and isn't worried about a couple of bucks this is a good place to start.

Like you I'm curious. Sounds like he's not going to send them back. Talked to a friend about this and he doesn't have a kind word to say about Winchester. He had bought a case of Winchester shotshells and a good number of them had concave heads to the tune the firing pin wouldn't set the primers off. Called and they said send them back which he did and all they did was send him a coupon for $2 off on the next box he bought. You can imagine how much it cost him to send a whole box of shotshells back. He wrote them and asked for the postage and got no answer. He's done with them.

Huntinlever pull the bullet, dump the powder, try the case in our firearms. Marker it black and load it like I told you in a previous post. Please report back. We're all trying to help you.

[TD1886]

No I am not wondering if the bullet is too large. That would show on the case neck. Just tying to point out to the OP where jam marks would be located on the bullet.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[M-Tecs]

Hannibal, I have a bullet puller (hammer type) - you mean, just pull the bullet and see if the case chambers without issue?

You can also seat the bullet deeper but since you are not showing bullet engraving marks that may not be your issue. Lacking proper measuring tools, using the magic marker to show contact areas is still your easiest option.