No Sparks

[Good Cheer]

If it's a Pedersoli 1805 the hammer geometry relative to the frizzen may be the problem.

[indian joe]

It won’t, brazing isn’t hot enough to significantly affect the temper of steel. Think soldering but with brass.

really???? brazing works at dull red heat or close ???? plenty hot enough to change the temper of steel I woulda thought????

[indian joe]

Given the fact the pistol is about new can’t help be wonder if the frizzen hardness is the issue. Most makers do make a decent product. Does the frizzen snap open when fired? Does hammer speed seem fast?

CVA's and Dikars were notorious for soft frizzen

[indian joe]

If you are worried about the strength of the main spring, try relieving as much tension as possible and wedging a small piece of hard rubber in the "V" area of the spring. If this works you than know you have a tension issue.

my gut says that would be a good way to break a mainspring (got nothing to back that only instinct) be interested what Lags thinks of this idea

[Sasquatch-1]

my gut says that would be a good way to break a mainspring (got nothing to back that only instinct) be interested what Lags thinks of this idea

I was thinking something on the thickness of a rubber band. Just enough to put a little tension on the spring to test it.

To the OP, you might want to get some Cherry Red (similar to Kasenite) for the frizzen before you go through the hassle of making a new spring.

A few years ago I broke the main spring in a Maroku pistol. I don't remember the company, but there was one you could send the measurements to and they would try and match it to an existing spring.

[GregLaROCHE]

If the high carbon steel brazed onto the frizzen doesn’t work, I may try to make a new spring. Here’s a video I watched a year or so ago, that makes me think I can make one. It’s pretty interesting.

https://youtu.be/gSJyrRP08Ms

[LAGS]

Making your own flat spring is doable.
But it is not a simple as it looks in the videos.
It takes a little practice it gets making a spring and getting the tempering correct.
But give it a try.
Just don't be upset if you have to make 5 or 6 before you get it right.

[HWooldridge]

Most people tend to under-temper springs so they end up breaking. Best to err on the hot side - can always go through another cycle if necessary.

[LAGS]

You are correct on the tempering.
It takes a little time playing with it a few times.
But like you said.
Do it in an order that allows you to re temper it if needed again.

[indian joe]

I was thinking something on the thickness of a rubber band. Just enough to put a little tension on the spring to test it.

To the OP, you might want to get some Cherry Red (similar to Kasenite) for the frizzen before you go through the hassle of making a new spring.

A few years ago I broke the main spring in a Maroku pistol. I don't remember the company, but there was one you could send the measurements to and they would try and match it to an existing spring.

hmmmmm for a test it should work ok - just thinking if it works it becomes permanent - then the spring is not functioning over its full arc - geometry is changed ?
I would be focussed on the frizzen first - once that is hard enough that the flint slides across the surface to make sparks rather than digging in - then springs
The springs need to be in balance with one another - enough resistance in the frizzen to generate sparks but still needs to snap open sharp and quick . These things are fun when you get them working right -- I was at a shoot a couple months ago and a compadre who builds top end flinters walked out in the drizzly rain and shot a nice ten shot target without the hint of a misfire or even a slow ignition --- knows his stuff!

[HWooldridge]

I was at a shoot a couple months ago and a compadre who builds top end flinters walked out in the drizzly rain and shot a nice ten shot target without the hint of a misfire or even a slow ignition --- knows his stuff!

Amen to their reliability - there was nothing better until percussion caps came along and many people stuck to flint in areas where caps were not readily available.

[GregLaROCHE]

I spoke to a friend today whose business is fabricating what ever is needed. I was planning on asking him to braze the frizzen for me. He said it wouldn’t work because the temperature for brazing would aneal the steel. After he left, I started thinking of silver soldier and then what about regular solder?

[LAGS]

You are correct that the heat in doing brazing will de temper the metal.
But if the metal is Quenched while hot will put it back to hard.
You just treat your operation like making a spring or tempering a knife.
Quenching in water makes it super hard and possible brittle.
Quenching it in oil makes it Hard but not as brittle.
Soldering can reduce the tempering of the steel too.
But not as bad.
Silver solder sometimes does use more heat , but shouldn't anneal the faceplate where it is too soft to spark.
If you want to see what I mean or test your tempering methods.
Just use an old hack saw blade cut into 5 pieces.
Keep one piece un heated.
One at a time.
Heat another one then quench it in water.
Heat one and let it air cool.
Heat one and quench it in oil.
Heat one and quench it in oil , then warm it up a little for a while like to 600° like setting it in melted lead for a half hour.
Then compare the hardness of each.

[405grain]

I would not try brazing a new piece of steel onto the face of the frizzen. The heat required would draw the temper from the steel. Quenching a brazed part is a bad idea because doing so would cause microfractures in the braze. From what's been described it's likely that the frizzen is made from mild steel and either has had the case hardening worn off the surface, or it wasn't properly case hardened. The easiest and (probably) best thing to try is to re-case harden the frizzen. This can be done the same way that it was hundreds of years ago: Take a lump of clay (the type that's used to make terra cotta pots) and form it into a bowl. Fill the bowl with ground charcoal (and other case hardening compounds if you like). Place the frizzen in the charcoal and close the bowl to form a ball. You've now got a ball of clay that's like an egg, with the frizzen and charcoal inside. Heat the clay ball slowly until it drys using whatever method you like: set by a fire, heated at low temperature in an oven, left in the sun for a couple of days, etc. Once the clay is dry start a campfire and place the clay ball in it. Keep adding wood and let the fire burn for a couple of hours. Then, pluck the clay ball out of the fire while it is still red hot and dunk it immediately into a barrel of water. The heat shock will cause the clay to shatter (a lot of water might jump up out of that barrel). The frizzen should now have a good case hard surface. After this, clean it off, install it, and see how it works.

[rodinal220]

Cherry Red Surface Hardening Compound. This will do the same thing as the old discontinued Kasenite. Just case harden your frizzen.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1006364292?pid=119479

[indian joe]

I spoke to a friend today whose business is fabricating what ever is needed. I was planning on asking him to braze the frizzen for me. He said it wouldn’t work because the temperature for brazing would aneal the steel. After he left, I started thinking of silver soldier and then what about regular solder?

I tried to say that a while back but missed the mark - quench it straight from the torch ---ahh just see LAGS posting the same ........................

[HWooldridge]

Simple carbon steels must get to about 1550 F to achieve austenitizing temperature and once hardened, approximately 650 F is the max tempering range. Normal brazing rod melts around 840 F, so that’s well over typical temper. That being said, the first thing might be to try and identify what type of steel the frizzen made from. If it’s low carbon, then case hardening is in order - if it’s medium to high carbon steel, then stay away from the case and stick to conventional HT in oil with a mild temper - maybe 300-400 degrees F. I wouldn’t mess around with trying to braze a piece of high carbon onto the face.

[slim1836]

My vote is for annealing the frizzen, perhaps by induction annealing if you know someone with one. That would allow you to control the temperature during the process.

I try to use English flints, not the chert we have here. I also use a thin strip of lead in lieu of leather to hold my flint.

Slim

[GregLaROCHE]

I don’t know what kind of steel the frizzen is, nor do I know about the different steels regarding which can be hardened by which method.

So, I ordered some Cherry Red Surface Hardening Compound. I’ve never case hardened before, it will be interesting to try. Midway has refused to sell anything to me because I am not in the U.S. they wouldn’t let me have something sent to a US address. Now they won’t even let me log into their site. I finally found a company in Australia who will ship a pound to me. The price was right. I wonder when I will get it.

As I said, this will be the first time I will try case hardening. What do I need to know to get it right? Is a propane torch hot enough?

Slim. I once bought an antique flintlock and it had the original flint still in it, held in with lead. I've been thinking about trying it on some of my other guns. Now I wish that I hadn't melted down the sheet lead I once had.

[Sasquatch-1]

The heat shock will cause the clay to shatter (a lot of water might jump up out of that barrel).

Aaah, The tinsel fairy's infamous 2nd cousin, the Aqua-fairy.