No Sparks

[waksupi]

I once bought an antique flintlock and it had the original flint still in it, held in with lead. I've been thinking about trying it on some of my other guns. Now I wish that I hadn't melted down the sheet lead I once had.

Don't do it, it will break internals.

[Jackrabbit1957]

How will it break internals? I've been using lead sheet on my rocklocks for years and never broke any parts. As to the case hardening, heat the piece to a cherry red, dip it in the hardening stuff, heat it cherry red and quench, I use water, others use oil. I generally do process twice before quenching. When heating the part after putting it in the powder be sure to have welding goggles or even a pair of dark sunglasses on.

[HWooldridge]

I don’t know what kind of steel the frizzen is, nor do I know about the different steels regarding which can be hardened by which method.

So, I ordered some Cherry Red Surface Hardening Compound. I’ve never case hardened before, it will be interesting to try. Midway has refused to sell anything to me because I am not in the U.S. they wouldn’t let me have something sent to a US address. Now they won’t even let me log into their site. I finally found a company in Australia who will ship a pound to me. The price was right. I wonder when I will get it.

As I said, this will be the first time I will try case hardening. What do I need to know to get it right? Is a propane torch hot enough?

Slim. I once bought an antique flintlock and it had the original flint still in it, held in with lead. I've been thinking about trying it on some of my other guns. Now I wish that I hadn't melted down the sheet lead I once had.

You will have more control with an oxy-acetylene torch. Straight propane won’t get it hot enough unless you have a larger brazing setup - although MAPP might get there.

[waksupi]

How will it break internals? .

It puts too much shock on the internals, and can break the tumbler.
I know of no lock maker who will warrant a lock where lead has been used. It was used by the military, who had access to a barrel full of spare parts. Do a search on the topic, not hard to find people with experience.

[indian joe]

It puts too much shock on the internals, and can break the tumbler.
I know of no lock maker who will warrant a lock where lead has been used. It was used by the military, who had access to a barrel full of spare parts. Do a search on the topic, not hard to find people with experience.

I've used lead a few times without incident but a piece of suede leather works so much better ---kinda renders this argument redundant ...............

[405grain]

I still have a can of Kasenit. I guard that stuff as if it were gold. I haven't tried Cherry Red, but the process is the same: heat the part until it glows orange, then dip it in the hardening compound. Then heat the coated part back up until it's glowing again and then quench it. This will give you a case hardness that's about .001" thick. If you want a thicker case, heat the part - then dip it the hardening compound. Then, while it's coated heat the part until it glows again but don't quench it. Instead stick it back in the hardening compound again, then take it out and heat it until it glows. You can repeat this for three dunks in the hardening compound, but the case won't get much deeper after that. Now heat the part up until it glows orange and then quench it. This will give you a case that's about .002" deep.

In order for a steel to be heat treatable it must have a carbon content above .02% Mild steels have a carbon content that's too low for them to heat treat. A common mild steel is AISI-1018. The first two numbers "10" are the alloy composition of the steel. The next two numbers "18" are the carbon content of the steel. In this case the carbon content would be .018% You can heat mild steel to above its phase change temperature (glowing hot), then quench it, and it will not harden. This is because the carbon content it too low for it to change it's molecular structure. Now, if you were to take a high carbon steel like, lets say AISI-1075, and heat it to above its phase change temperature, then quench it, it would become very hard. This is because when a high carbon steel reaches it's phase change temperature the carbon atoms move from the face of the steel molecule to its corners, where they can form much stronger bonds. When you quench the steel it cools off so fast that the carbon atoms don't have time to move back to their original weak bond positions. If you heat the high carbon steel back up to its phase change temperature and then allow it to cool slowly the carbon atoms will have time to go back to their weaker positions; (this is called annealing)

There is a huge amount of chemistry, metallurgy, physics and mechanics involved, so this was just the 4th grade explanation of how heat treating works. (There's lots of stuff I'm skipping over.) When you do case hardening, what you're doing is using a chemical or a gas to saturate the surface of the heated steel with carbon. The heated steel absorbs some of the carbon, creating a thin layer (or "case") of high carbon steel on its surface. When you quench this part the high carbon case will harden, leaving a core of mild steel inside.

[Gunor]

https://cdn.trackofthewolf.com/Pdfs/...structions.pdf

Tempering the toe of the frizzen…

[JimB..]

Apologies, I was clearly wrong on the metallurgy.

[slim1836]

I don’t know what kind of steel the frizzen is, nor do I know about the different steels regarding which can be hardened by which method.

So, I ordered some Cherry Red Surface Hardening Compound. I’ve never case hardened before, it will be interesting to try. Midway has refused to sell anything to me because I am not in the U.S. they wouldn’t let me have something sent to a US address. Now they won’t even let me log into their site. I finally found a company in Australia who will ship a pound to me. The price was right. I wonder when I will get it.

As I said, this will be the first time I will try case hardening. What do I need to know to get it right? Is a propane torch hot enough?

Slim. I once bought an antique flintlock and it had the original flint still in it, held in with lead. I've been thinking about trying it on some of my other guns. Now I wish that I hadn't melted down the sheet lead I once had.

Just flatten out a boolit to the desired shape and fold it in half.

Slim

[indian joe]

I still have a can of Kasenit. I guard that stuff as if it were gold. I haven't tried Cherry Red, but the process is the same: heat the part until it glows orange, then dip it in the hardening compound. Then heat the coated part back up until it's glowing again and then quench it. This will give you a case hardness that's about .001" thick. If you want a thicker case, heat the part - then dip it the hardening compound. Then, while it's coated heat the part until it glows again but don't quench it. Instead stick it back in the hardening compound again, then take it out and heat it until it glows. You can repeat this for three dunks in the hardening compound, but the case won't get much deeper after that. Now heat the part up until it glows orange and then quench it. This will give you a case that's about .002" deep.

In order for a steel to be heat treatable it must have a carbon content above .02% Mild steels have a carbon content that's too low for them to heat treat. A common mild steel is AISI-1018. The first two numbers "10" are the alloy composition of the steel. The next two numbers "18" are the carbon content of the steel. In this case the carbon content would be .018% You can heat mild steel to above its phase change temperature (glowing hot), then quench it, and it will not harden. This is because the carbon content it too low for it to change it's molecular structure. Now, if you were to take a high carbon steel like, lets say AISI-1075, and heat it to above its phase change temperature, then quench it, it would become very hard. This is because when a high carbon steel reaches it's phase change temperature the carbon atoms move from the face of the steel molecule to its corners, where they can form much stronger bonds. When you quench the steel it cools off so fast that the carbon atoms don't have time to move back to their original weak bond positions. If you heat the high carbon steel back up to its phase change temperature and then allow it to cool slowly the carbon atoms will have time to go back to their weaker positions; (this is called annealing)

There is a huge amount of chemistry, metallurgy, physics and mechanics involved, so this was just the 4th grade explanation of how heat treating works. (There's lots of stuff I'm skipping over.) When you do case hardening, what you're doing is using a chemical or a gas to saturate the surface of the heated steel with carbon. The heated steel absorbs some of the carbon, creating a thin layer (or "case") of high carbon steel on its surface. When you quench this part the high carbon case will harden, leaving a core of mild steel inside.

Gets a lot more complicated when you encounter alloy steels
fr instance I had no problem making a decent workable reamer from a grade five HT bolt (carbon steel)
same process - milled to shape - heated with oxypropane torch while rotating in the drill chuck - quenched in used engine oil
applied to a grade eight bolt (alloy steel) was a failure ---yeah I learn by doing ! read the instruction manual afterwards ...

[HWooldridge]

Joe,

As you related, Grade 5 fasteners are usually made from plain, medium carbon steels such as 1040 or 1045. Grade 8 bolts are generally 4340 or another alloy steel, which are more likely to through-harden and take more time and care to heat treat.

HW

[indian joe]

Joe,

As you related, Grade 5 fasteners are usually made from plain, medium carbon steels such as 1040 or 1045. Grade 8 bolts are generally 4340 or another alloy steel, which are more likely to through-harden and take more time and care to heat treat.

HW

yeah ----lesson learned, the carbon steel bolt did a good job - reamed two pistol cylinders and still sharp as

[GregLaROCHE]

I’m waiting for my cherry red to get to me from Australia. Thanks for the info on how on case hardening.