Is there a point to water dropping cast ?

[reloader X]

IF, youre going to bake them to PC ? I dont dump my pc'd bullets in water outta the oven. I set the timer & do other things
i also use mo bullet co #2 alloy

[Winger Ed.]

Years ago, everybody cast, and dropped 'em on a towel.
Then, you had to heat treat everything. You'd put a boolit in an oven and keep raising the temp. until it 'slumped'.
Back the temp. off some, run your boolits in the oven awhile, and then dump them in cold water.

Pretty soon, some folks started dropping them out of the mold into cold water to get the tempering.
I still drop into cold water as it's just fast and handy for me.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

If you truly inderstand metalurgy, any tempering of soft metal will eventually return to the 'memory' phase of the initial metal and soften over time whether it is quenched or not. The only way to ensure constant hardness is via the alloy that you mix in the first place.

[414gates]

Dropping cast lead alloy in water just cools it down faster, and you want to do that because if you keep dropping hot bullets from the mould on top of each other in a bucket with no water, you might end up with a whole lot of them being deformed, especially if they are heavy.

CORRECTION [ thank you to Dusty Bannister for pointing out my mistake ] : Lead does not harden by quenching.

Lead alloy age hardens. Let your cast bullets sit for two weeks, and that's about as hard as they're going to get.

I dump my cast bullets into water from the mould to cool them quickly.

I leave my PC bullets to air cool.

[Winger Ed.]

Dropping cast lead alloy in water just cools it down faster,

I'm not a chemist, but I'd heard more than a few times there has to be a certain amount of Antimony, Arsenic, or maybe both
for them to harden/temper at all.

[Dusty Bannister]

Lead alloy does not harden by quenching.

Lead alloy age hardens. Let your cast bullets sit for two weeks, and that's about as hard as they're going to get.


414 Gates, are you talking pure lead or a lead alloy containing antimony and tin? Pure lead is known to age soften. Pure lead will not quench harden.

[Half Dog]

I weigh my bullets. Dropping them in water allows me to handle them sooner.

[Hick]

I cast in batches of at least 100, usually 200-400, and just drop them on an old cotton bathroom rug. By the time I'm done casting a batch they are cool anyway. After PC I let them air cool.

[facetious]

When you water drop a boolit you get a finer grain Structure than a air cooled boolit. This is what makes it stronger.

[TD1886]

If the lead bullet has the hardening alloys in it of Antimony and Arsenic, plus Tin, being very hot out of the mould dropped in the water hardens it....then, then, then, you have to let it age for two weeks minimum so it hardens more and eventually to it's final stage or hardness. To get it even harder you would have to oven heat treat the bullet to a temperature below slumping, hold the that temperature for a period of time, then water quench it. If you're not going to push rifle cast bullets to the limit you can just drop them on a towel and let them air cool. Most pistol/revolver cast bullets you do not need that hard of an alloy or have to heat treat them. Many revolver bullets don't have the hardening alloys in them to achieve that. Most people shoot lead/tin cast bullets in revolvers and many BP rifle cartridges such as the 45-70.

[Hannibal]

Lead alloy does not harden by quenching.

Lead alloy age hardens. Let your cast bullets sit for two weeks, and that's about as hard as they're going to get.

Sorry, but that statement is incorrect. I've personally tested it and I know better. Pure soft lead does not age harden nor will it harden by water dropping. Alloys are a completely different set of circumstances.

[kevin c]

I’m no metallurgist, but I’d guess reheating a bullet once or twice during the coating process could alter grain structure from whatever form it had before and regardless of how it got there. So maybe save a quench or heat treatment to the post coating stage?

[414gates]

I'm not a chemist, but I'd heard more than a few times there has to be a certain amount of Antimony, Arsenic, or maybe both
for them to harden/temper at all.

Correct, the other elements mixed with the lead are what cause it to be an alloy, and to age harden.

Pure lead can't age harden, it's not an alloy.

414 Gates, are you talking pure lead or a lead alloy containing antimony and tin? Pure lead is known to age soften. Pure lead will not quench harden.

Pure lead is not an alloy. It can't be hardened.

[414gates]

Sorry, but that statement is incorrect. I've personally tested it and I know better. Pure soft lead does not age harden nor will it harden by water dropping.

I specifically mentioned "lead alloy". I did not refer at all to pure lead. Pure lead is not an alloy, an alloy by definition is a mixture of metals.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Then of course, with the use of powder coating, you can drive relatively soft boolits at much higher velocity.

[Rapier]

Just to set the record streight, by studies, publications and my own split bullet testing, hard alloys, water dropped out of the mould, add a .004 to .006 depth of hardness to the bullet surface. It is the exact reason I use a 70-20-10 alloy, water dropped out of the mould, dried, powder coated then sized to the precise groove diameter. I get 2,500 fps with the 200 RCBS plain base PC bullets in my 358 MGP and it shoots 3/10 inch at 100.

This alloy and process fomes from Carlton Shy Jr, the Cast Bullet Editor for the Silhouette Magazine. Carlton an engineer, did extensive testing on casting alloys, air cool, water dropped, heat treating, etc. Then cut the bullets in layers to check the depth of hardness as created. He had near 200 casters test his alloys and loads, to develop what he called, his optimum loads and alloys. His articles and book, Casting For Handgun Accuracy is an interesting volume of work.Folks call it the Red Book, because it is red. Carlton also created a software for PCs called Compubal, it is for casters.
If you can find them, the book and software would be a good addition to any caster's library. I do have a copy of both.

Carlton, now gone, pre dates the powder coating of bullets, but he was a firm believer in the best lube and best alloy with water dropping. I would imagine he would have loved the PC process, to generate good accuracy at a higher velocity, and no GC.

[TD1886]

I’m no metallurgist, but I’d guess reheating a bullet once or twice during the coating process could alter grain structure from whatever form it had before and regardless of how it got there. So maybe save a quench or heat treatment to the post coating stage?

Reheating it over and over anneals and it has to go through the hardening process again as long as it has hardening alloys in it.

[TD1886]

Correct, the other elements mixed with the lead are what cause it to be an alloy, and to age harden.

Pure lead can't age harden, it's not an alloy.



Pure lead is not an alloy. It can't be hardened.

One of my very good friends is a metallurgist and pure lead can be harden. I'm not going through the process, just believe me. He's something to ponder. Back in the wooden spear day after man shaped the point they hardened it in a flame. Yeah yeah I know it's not metal.

[jsizemore]

One of my very good friends is a metallurgist and pure lead can be harden. I'm not going through the process, just believe me. He's something to ponder. Back in the wooden spear day after man shaped the point they hardened it in a flame. Yeah yeah I know it's not metal.

What BHN does the pure lead harden to?

[poppy42]

It seems to me that this same question comes up about every 6 months or so. Well this is what I know, from personal experience. I have tested 3 different boolets, cast from the same mold, at the same time, from the same batch of alloy. One air cooled, two water quenched. I tested the air cooled and one water quenched as to hardness. The water quenched was harder! The air cooled tested at about 11 bhn, the water quenched tested at about 13. The testing was done with a Lee hardness tester. As anyone who has used a Lee hardness tester knows, precision is not always possible with a Lee hardness tester. That’s why I stated the results as approximate. The actual numbers are not important, they are just numbers! The fact is, the water quenched was harder. Know for the third boolet. I didn’t initially test the third bullet for hardness. But considering the other two were tested and this one was water quenched just like the other water quenched bullet, I think it’s safe to say that the initial results probably would’ve been the same. Well then set that bullet aside for roughly a month. I then tested its hardness. And the results were the third bullet tested at roughly 15/16 BHN. Now y’all can do your own tests, decide what you want, come to your own conclusions. In my mind, for my purposes I have determined that is far as I’m concerned water quenching and alloy most definitely increases its hardness! Furthermore a water quench bullet that is allowed to sit for a period of time does game some hardness. I also believe although I did not test is that even an air cooled bullet if let that sit for a period of time will gain some hardness. As far as how much or what the actual BHN is. Quite honestly I don’t care! As far as I’m concerned BHN there’s nothing more than numbers. Personally I don’t care what those numbers are. If my cast Boolets there’s what I wanted to do in relationship to hardness that’s perfectly acceptable to me! I could care less what the actual numbers are! When I cast the bullet I have certain expectations for that bullet in relationship to expansion How it travels after it leaves the barrel of my firearm etc. As far as the actual numbers I don’t care if it tests to a bhn of 1 or 2001 I don’t care! As long as that bullet does what I need/expect it to do and I can someone duplicate it when I cast my next batch of bullets that’s perfect for my needs! I think a lot of people make casting bullets a lot harder than it actually is. Man as a species has been casting bullets of one type or another for well over 500 years! Although I wasn’t around back then I’m pretty sure that those folks casting the first boolets didn’t have BHN hardness testers! As a matter of fact I’m pretty sure that none of those folks had PIDs on their campfire lead melting pot, or multiple thermometers to check their temperature of their alloy! I’m pretty sure it went something like this “. Well Fred this stuff in the pot is melted and I can pour it into a mold now I’m pretty sure it’s good to go”! But all this is just my opinion and the way I do things y’all do whatever makes you comfortable!