25 Stevens now goes bang

[uscra112]

Rocky Mountain Cartridge will make .25 Stevens cases for you, but they're spendy.

Converting .25 Stevens to centerfire isn't new. I recently learned that Reuben Harwood was doing it in 1894!

[Rockingkj]

Thanks for your guidance. appreciate that. Should I be concerned with what I perceive as a loosing of the action?

[uscra112]

Yes. The Favorite and Model 44 share a serious weakness, which is that the geometry of the toggle linkage is such that the compression load on the link is almost 80% of the bolt thrust. Repeated firing batters the link holes oval, and headspace opens up. The link in the '94 Favorite is thin, and particularly susceptible. I've repaired a good many by fitting oversize pins, (4mm for Favorite, 5mm for Model 44). This requires some chucking reamers, which ain't cheap, but it does the job. Meanwhile keep your loads mild.

Can I assume you are dumping the powder from those blanks? Blank fire powder is extremely fast, and creates unusually high pressures. (A historical note is that the bursting charge in American WW2 grenades was just "blank-fire powder".)

[Rockingkj]

Yes. The Favorite and Model 44 share a serious weakness, which is that the geometry of the toggle linkage is such that the compression load on the link is almost 80% of the bolt thrust. Repeated firing batters the link holes oval, and headspace opens up. The link in the '94 Favorite is thin, and particularly susceptible. I've repaired a good many by fitting oversize pins, (4mm for Favorite, 5mm for Model 44). This requires some chucking reamers, which ain't cheap, but it does the job. Meanwhile keep your loads mild.

Can I assume you are dumping the powder from those blanks? Blank fire powder is extremely fast, and creates unusually high pressures. (A historical note is that the bursting charge in American WW2 grenades was just "blank-fire powder".)

Not safe to assume anything, no did not dump the powder. That fact eluded me in my reading. I guess why use a blank at all? Just pull the bullet from a short, dump the powder and call it a primer. Should that not work?

[uscra112]

I guess why use a blank at all? Just pull the bullet from a short, dump the powder and call it a primer. Should that not work?

Until you can lay in a store of the acorn blanks, that would be a good plan. Combine with your 4227 charges as before.

Or use a #1 or #2 nailgun load, (grey or brown), without any additional powder. This has been done quite a lot, without any major problems, save that the spent case is harder to punch out of your adapter. The powder in nailgun loads is chosen to work against the resistance of the driver piston, so the pressure will be reasonable.

BTW that blank+4227 load may have leaded your barrel. Check and clean before any more shooting.

Going back to that ASSRA thread, poster >ndnchf< has been having good results using RL-7 powder. I would have sworn on a stack of Bibles that it was too slow for this, but it's working for him. Do brew a cup of tea and read through it. It pretty much recapitulates everything we've learned about making the .25 Stevens work over the last 4+ years.

Will look forward to seeing the gun should you decide to engrave it.

[Rockingkj]

Again thank you very much for your help. Ndnchf had mentioned RL-7 and 2400. 4227 is what I used since that’s what I have on hand. Use that in my 25-20 and 28-30 with good results and seems comparable to 2400. I will certainly show off the engraving when done. Thought I had a pics of a .32 rim fire I had done but must have deleted ‘em.

[uscra112]

4227 is about as good as it gets. The powders to avoid are the fast pistol and shotgun powders like Bullseye and Red Dot. They generate a shorter pulse at higher peak pressure to get any given muzzle velocity. And as we know, the powder used in blanks is even faster than those, by a lot. Just what the '94 Favorite does not need.

[Rockingkj]

What are you using to cut the rim for the blank in the hornet case? I used a drill bit but thinking there has to be a better tool than that. Thanks.

[uscra112]

I went to the extreme of having a reamer made, going back to when I started making .32 rimfire adapters. Essentially a .22 chamber reamer with the body diameter reduced.

For the modified Hornet cases, I would otherwise have chucked them up in the lathe and used a boring bar.

It could be done with only a drill press and using a 1/4" mill for a boring bar, but the setup would be mighty tricky.

Some have used a Letter J or K drill, but it removes more metal in a critical area than I'd like.

Which points to a weakness in the converted Hornet cases, which is that there isn't much metal holding the rim to the case body. This can lead to tearing the rim right off when seating a .22 blank, so I made a little steel "bullet" with a shoulder, like heeled .32 bullet. I use this and my seating die to press in the blank. The seating force is thus on the mouth of the case, rather than on the rim. This came about because, when I wrote the specification for my reamer, I was using older Walther copper acorn blanks, which were a few "tenths" smaller than the brass Umarex acorn blanks you get today. Eventually I used a .224 chucking reamer to enlarge the body hole in the adapter, but I still use the little steel "bullet". Seen here next to the "lozenge" decapping pin which is the original way of centerfire decapping with the Ideal tong tools.

[Rockingkj]

Made one of those decapping pins to go with my Winchester 25-20 tong tool. Back to 25 Stevens looks to be several ways to skin the cat. I have a .22 long rifle finish reamer but do not want to ruin it just to cut a rim. Again thanks for your help and advice.

[Rockingkj]

Thought I had finally found a use for .22 Thunderbolts. Pulled the bullet dumped the powder and used the case as the “primer”. When they went off, shot a good group off the bench w 3.9gr 4227. However very anemic primer and a few slight hang fires. Finally had one that created a half hearted ignition would been a dud but sorta went off. Lodged the bullet in the bore few inches ahead of the case. Will try again with better .22 shells and see what happens.

[uscra112]

Thought I had finally found a use for .22 Thunderbolts. Pulled the bullet dumped the powder and used the case as the “primer”. When they went off, shot a good group off the bench w 3.9gr 4227. However very anemic primer and a few slight hang fires. Finally had one that created a half hearted ignition would been a dud but sorta went off. Lodged the bullet in the bore few inches ahead of the case. Will try again with better .22 shells and see what happens.

That long, empty case is shrouding the primer flash away from the powder.

[kootne]

I found in my .32RF travels that when using a .22 LR case with the bullet pulled and powder replaced ignition was not consistent unless the powder was placed in the .22 case and a small tuft of Kleenex to hold it in. Don't recall any load details off the top of my head at this time but it is written down somewhere.

[uscra112]

There's your answer. ^^

[Rockingkj]

Interesting, would have thought the powder would travel into the LR case and that not be an issue. When I was building additional cases and testing with empty Thunderbolt cases barely perceptible that the priming ignited. AND some strong pin strikes that failed to go off at all. But I have seen that issue when shooting Thunderbolts in my .22 LRs Should have sold ‘‘em back in the we will pay anything for .22 shells days.

[uscra112]

They weren't called Thunderduds for nothing.

Have you ordered up some acorn blanks yet? Personally I'd quit experimenting until I had some.

[Rockingkj]

No I have not ordered any. Just dumb enough to believe my square wheel with work just fine. Thanks for putting up with me.

[uscra112]

No huhu. Helping out is what we do here.

[Rockingkj]

Actually thought I was on to something 1” groups at 25yds with a rest, crude sights and poor eye sight. Constant ignition is a fickle mistress when you take the less attractive to the prom.

[Rockingkj]

I found in my .32RF travels that when using a .22 LR case with the bullet pulled and powder replaced ignition was not consistent unless the powder was placed in the .22 case and a small tuft of Kleenex to hold it in. Don't recall any load details off the top of my head at this time but it is written down somewhere.

I can understand that with .32 since there would be empty space around the .22 LR and stands to reason the primer might not be in contact with the powder. The way my cases for the 25 Stevens are built, they fit totally inside the case sorta like a rifle chamber. So when loaded there would not be any “hooding” ,the primer compound has direct access to the powder. My ignited “dud” remains a mystery. operator error, say it ain’t so Betty.